Electric vehicles

[Jacob]

I’m not sure I understand your question but we’re still in the relatively early stages of vehicle battery development.

Really? They were invented about 1800. Maybe we are at the end of vehicle battery development.

 

[Vulcan]

Really? They were invented about 1800. Maybe we are at the end of vehicle battery development.

I was referring to high density Lithium batteries that have made modern EV’s a practical proposition.

I’m not sure Milk Floats ever counted as personal transport!

 

[selectortone]

EV technology is still in its infancy. The time between the first flight of the piston powered Avro Lancaster and the jet powered Avro Vulcan was a little over ten years. Where there's a will, there's a way. With all the development that is going on with EVs it is hard to imagine what will be available in ten years time.

 

[Jacob]

EV technology is still in its infancy. The time between the first flight of the piston powered Avro Lancaster and the jet powered Avro Vulcan was a little over ten years. Where there's a will, there's a way. With all the development that is going on with EVs it is hard to imagine what will be available in ten years time.

The first EV was on the road in 1884. It's old technology already. There has been intensive battery R&D for many years. Private car has reached the end of the road.
But the boy's toys dream is distracting attention from the things which we are going to have to do. EV fantasy land is holding us back.
OTOH EV trams, trolleys, trains are old and well established technology.

 

[selectortone]

It's old technology already

The lead acid battery is old technology.

 

[Jacob]

The lead acid battery is old technology.

And it works!
But what also works is electric pick-up by rail/wire etc which is also old technology and doesn't need batteries at all (except for back up).
I reckon modern batteries may improve short distance travel - taxi, local deliveries from electric train stations etc but will never replace the private car as we now know it.

 

[selectortone]

And it works!

And so did the Merlin engine in the Avro Lancaster. I'm surprised you can talk so authoritatively about something you obviously have only a superficial understanding of. Actually, I'm not surprised, you do it all the time.

 

[Jacob]

And so did the Merlin engine in the Avro Lancaster. I'm surprised you can talk so authoritatively about something you obviously have only a superficial understanding of. Actually, I'm not surprised, you do it all the time.

I superficially understand that EVs so far are an expensive flop and that there is no infrastructure to support their wider use, let alone enough sustainably generated electricity. Until then, and until green electricity becomes very cheap, then the private car won't be a priority, as climate change kicks in.

 

[selectortone]

QED

 

[worn thumbs]

From time to time I am the recipient of a sermon about the wonders of trams and trolley-buses from one of their advocates.I have no difficulty believing that they emit no pollution in the streets where they operate.I do struggle to believe they would be in service for long stretches because of the frequency of roadworks and the impossibility of easy diversions.There was a bit less going on beneath the surface in the old days.For one thing,hardly anybody had a phone line and now we would dread the lack of connectivity.I also wonder about the wisdom of high voltage cables above our streets.Particularly if the fire brigade has to use a crane to dunk an EV with thermal runaway in a large tank of water.

 

[Jacob]

From time to time I am the recipient of a sermon about the wonders of trams and trolley-buses from one of their advocates.I have no difficulty believing that they emit no pollution in the streets where they operate.I do struggle to believe they would be in service for long stretches because of the frequency of roadworks and the impossibility of easy diversions.There was a bit less going on beneath the surface in the old days.For one thing,hardly anybody had a phone line and now we would dread the lack of connectivity.I also wonder about the wisdom of high voltage cables above our streets.Particularly if the fire brigade has to use a crane to dunk an EV with thermal runaway in a large tank of water.

Trains for long distances, trams/trolleys local, battery EVs very local, bicycles for the woke!
Yes there are probs but relatively simple low tech ones.

 

[Vulcan]

I superficially understand that EVs so far are an expensive flop and that there is no infrastructure to support their wider use, let alone enough sustainably generated electricity. Until then, and until green electricity becomes very cheap, then the private car won't be a priority, as climate change kicks in.

I’m intrigued by your comments. Why do you think EV’s are a flop? A quick Google and you get comments like:

“The Tesla Model Y was the best-selling car model in Europe in September 2023 and the first three quarters of 2023.” And “The demand for electric vehicles in Europe remained high despite the lack of affordable EVs on the European new car market. In September 2023, EV registrations in Europe totalled 186,380 cars accounting for a 16.1% share of the total new car market – an increase of 13% compared to September 2022.”
Not bad figures for a flop?

2023 (September) Europe: Car Sales and Market Analysis - Car Sales Statistics

I also read the other day that there are approaching 1 million EV’s on the road in the UK and 93% of those are charged at home, taking advantage of per mile costs of half that of petrol or diesel cars. Another statistic is that 95% of EV owners said they would never buy another ICE car.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

Re your third bullet point - could you explain how EV's will 'increase in range' and 'recharge more quickly than currently' ?

The original Nissan Leaf (the first "modern" EV) had a range of ~80 miles. Unremarkable EVs in 2023 (12 years later) boast a range of 200-250 miles with up to 350 in higher spec vehicles.

The original Leaf would charge at ~7KW. Typical rapid charging now is ~80-100KW reducing charge times by a factor of 10+. Faster is rare but plausible.

Cost per KWh of battery storage for EV has fallen by ~75% over the last 12 years.

It would be physically implausible for these rates of progress to be perpetuated indefinitely. But to assert there is still potential for significant improvement is not unreasonable.

 

[RogerS]

Trains for long distances, trams/trolleys local, battery EVs very local, bicycles for the woke!
Yes there are probs but relatively simple low tech ones.

You still don't get it. Rural living. Ring a bell? Or are you expecting us all to get a horse? Doh....silly me....of course you do.

 

[RogerS]

The original Nissan Leaf (the first "modern" EV) had a range of ~80 miles. Unremarkable EVs in 2023 (12 years later) boast a range of 200-250 miles with up to 350 in higher spec vehicles.

The original Leaf would charge at ~7KW. Typical rapid charging now is ~80-100KW reducing charge times by a factor of 10+. Faster is rare but plausible.

Cost per KWh of battery storage for EV has fallen by ~75% over the last 12 years.

It would be physically implausible for these rates of progress to be perpetuated indefinitely. But to assert there is still potential for significant improvement is not unreasonable.

I wonder what the EV battery equivalent is of "Moore's Law"? "Jacob's Whimsy" ?

 

[John Brown]

You still don't get it. Rural living. Ring a bell? Or are you expecting us all to get a horse? Doh....silly me....of course you do.

Rural living is what Suella Braverman would call a "lifestyle choice", isn't it?

 

[Vulcan]

And still going down it seems Terry.

Electric cars approach ‘tipping point’ as battery prices plummet

The outcome for future EV take up is looking quite propitious to me. I just hope the purchase price comes down before my current car conks out!

 

[John Brown]

I wonder what the EV battery equivalent is of "Moore's Law"? "Jacob's Whimsy" ?

Um... I don't think it was Jacob that made any claims about advances in EV battery performance. Still, never let facts get in the way of a bit of snarky rhetoric, as my old mum used to say.

Oops! Sorry, forgot the emoji!

 

[RogerS]

Rural living is what Suella Braverman would call a "lifestyle choice", isn't it?

Ah, my stalker returns. How are you doing ? You've been very quiet of late.

 

[paulrbarnard]

You still don't get it. Rural living. Ring a bell? Or are you expecting us all to get a horse? Doh....silly me....of course you do.

I live in a rural location. Our next car is going to be EV. We will charge it at home and will probably never need to use a public charger. To be honest having to drive five miles to get petrol is a pain in the arse.