Electric vehicles

[MusicMan]

I am not discounting hydrogen (or more likely ammonia) fuel cell power in the long run, especially for heavier vehicles (lorries, trains). It is portable, non-polluting, stores a lot of energy and for big vehicles the cost and weight of onboard fuel storage and fuel cell may well scale more favourably than batteries. The distribution network is also very expensive to build compared with EV chargers. But possible for railways and ships of course, which can charge at relatively few locations.

This is for pollution. For energy efficiency the story is different, as hydrogen manufacturing processes currently use about three times as much energy as the hydrogen stores. If it is produced by fossil fuel (as it mostly is at present) then this is a greenhouse gas disaster. However, if and when we get into a surplus of renewable energy, manufacturing hydrogen or ammonia is a good way to store it. For static purposes such as heating, the gas network is already available. Maybe a clever way will be found, possibly using biological processes, but electrolysing it from water will always cost a lot of energy.

Of course one can build impressive demo cars that use it, but building a whole network is very much more difficult than for BEVs. And there is still plenty of research to be done on hydrogen or ammonia fuel cells to bring the cost down.

A very detailed and really useful discussion of electric vehicles and infrastructure was published last week in a House of Commons research briefing paper. The summary is here:
https://researchbriefings.parliament.uk ... y/CBP-7480
and it contains a link to the full report, for anyone interested. It answers a lot of questions raised in this thread.

 

[RogerS]

Account here of the trials and tribulations of owning an electric car. Highlights some of the issues raised here.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-51678830

 

[Rorschach]

This bit is rather worrying:

However, she adds that the system will still need to ensure everyone isn't plugging in their electric car at once.

This means connecting up charging points to a computer system that determines when they can be used

Sounds like huge potential for restricting the movements of the population.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

This bit is rather worrying:

However, she adds that the system will still need to ensure everyone isn't plugging in their electric car at once.

This means connecting up charging points to a computer system that determines when they can be used

Sounds like huge potential for restricting the movements of the population.

It's called demand management and we should be much better at it than we are. Economy 7 or whatever it's now called is a simple example.

 

[Rorschach]

This bit is rather worrying:

However, she adds that the system will still need to ensure everyone isn't plugging in their electric car at once.

This means connecting up charging points to a computer system that determines when they can be used

Sounds like huge potential for restricting the movements of the population.

It's called demand management and we should be much better at it than we are. Economy 7 or whatever it's now called is a simple example.

That's not the same thing. They are talking about cutting off the electricity supply at will. At no point is your electricity supply cut at home under E& or similar, they just offer you a cheap rate at night.

If someone has control over when your car is charged they could prevent you travelling to work for example.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

We live in a connected world. It is entirely possible for the EV to vary its charging rate minute by minute depending on overall available capacity, overall demand, and infrastructure constraints.

This is no different in principle to your internet connection where speeds and prices vary depending on the activity of other users. The charging mechanisms may be similar too - if you want:

- priority and high charge rate you pay xxx,
- a fully charged by 07.00 commitment you pay xx,
- lower priority and charge rate the price is x

 

[dangles]

What people forget to mention when charging at night on economy 7 is that by having economy 7 you pay more for your daytime electricity.

 

[RogerS]

Met a mate of mine down t'pub last night. He looks after a huge patch of garages in the North...drives 40,000 miles a year. He's ordered a plug-in hybrid. We're having supper in a couple of weeks time and so I'll grill him then as to his decision making process. He reminded me that we have a local community BEV. Will also ask him how it's going. They're after volunteer drivers and I'm tempted. Hands on and all that.

 

[Lons]

I think my stepping stone when it comes before a BEV, unless there are some major developments would most likely be a hybrid of some kind. Was looking at the new self charging Subaru Forester on Thursday and it looks impressive, very well equipped and at top spec model they've kept it just under the luxury car tax threshold.

 

[RogerS]

Really can't see the point of a hybrid, TBH. You're paying a hell of a lot for something you shouldn't need ....the ICE ! Plus gearbox etc.

 

[Geoff_S]

I think my stepping stone when it comes before a BEV, unless there are some major developments would most likely be a hybrid of some kind. Was looking at the new self charging Subaru Forester on Thursday and it looks impressive, very well equipped and at top spec model they've kept it just under the luxury car tax threshold.

As a matter of interest Cons, what electric only range are you getting on that?

 

[stuartpaul]

I'd be quite happy to have an EV, - for the vast majority of our trips it would be fine. A few longer ones would need better planning but not insurmountable. However affording one is a very different issue and I don't see one on the horizon for quite some time. Unless sales of second hand ICE cars are banned as well there's going to be a significant market at the 'lower end' for many, many years to come.

What I can't understand is why Tesla have managed to 'stitch up' the charging system like they have and none of the major vehicle manufacturers have anything even remotely similar. Cost, availability and even plug standardisation are issues that need to be rapidly addressed.

 

[Lons]

Really can't see the point of a hybrid, TBH. You're paying a hell of a lot for something you shouldn't need ....the ICE ! Plus gearbox etc.

probably right Roger just was very impressed with the car. I change my mind about cars as often as Steve changes his undercrackers ( coronavirus thread :lol: )

 

[Lons]

As a matter of interest Cons, what electric only range are you getting on that?

I didn't know Geoff as I only saw it on Thursday when one of the fishing guys rolled up in one.

I've changed my mind though as just looked it up and apparently only has 1 mile battery range at 25mph so stuff that! :lol: I'll stick with my Euro 6 diesel Merc for the minute.

 

[RogerS]

As a matter of interest Cons, what electric only range are you getting on that?

I didn't know Geoff as I only saw it on Thursday when one of the fishing guys rolled up in one.

I've changed my mind though as just looked it up and apparently only has 1 mile battery range at 25mph so stuff that! :lol: I'll stick with my Euro 6 diesel Merc for the minute.

Lons, I hear AA batteries are plentiful. You could always get another one to complement the one already fitted.

 

[Bodgers]

What people forget to mention when charging at night on economy 7 is that by having economy 7 you pay more for your daytime electricity.

Yes, but the while point is that if you didn't have the deal, running the storage heaters overnight would be more expensive overall.

If you have an electric car, you are probably better off with something like Octopus Go, where the overnight band is narrower and the daytime rates are close to typical rates.

 

[Lons]

Lons, I hear AA batteries are plentiful. You could always get another one to complement the one already fitted.

Or could fit one of your solar panels and a controller on the roof maybe!

The 100w panel on the roof of our motorhome does a reasonable job keeping the batteries ticking over.

 

[Geoff_S]

As a matter of interest Cons, what electric only range are you getting on that?

I didn't know Geoff as I only saw it on Thursday when one of the fishing guys rolled up in one.

I've changed my mind though as just looked it up and apparently only has 1 mile battery range at 25mph so stuff that! :lol: I'll stick with my Euro 6 diesel Merc for the minute.

Good shout Self charging hybrids do seem to be a little bit stupid IMHO

 

[Bodgers]

I think my stepping stone when it comes before a BEV, unless there are some major developments would most likely be a hybrid of some kind. Was looking at the new self charging Subaru Forester on Thursday and it looks impressive, very well equipped and at top spec model they've kept it just under the luxury car tax threshold.

The self charging thing is basically advertising lies. Toyota have already had their wrists slapped by many euro companies over the term.

It is charged by filling the car with petrol after all! Any energy recovery can only happen because of that fuel.

 

[MusicMan]

Hey, this is just the journalists speculation. Ive not seen that anywhere in the House of Commons documents, even as a suggestion. Let's not start a conspiracy theory.

I think that smart meters and differential pricing will sort it out nicely. I am shortly going on the the Octopus Agile tariff which is cheap most of the time but particularly expensive at the peak 4 - 7 pm time. Guess when I won't be charging my car.