Electric vehicles

[Woody2Shoes]

I would love an electric vehicle - I would save €3-€4,000 a year in fuel alone, plus all the servicing costs (last year's engine rebuild was €2,000). I could buy a few solar panels and make my own charging system, for peanuts - I actually have sunshine, too, so for 10 months of the year it would be pretty much guaranteed to work - free fuel!

Only 2 problems for me: one, I can't afford a brand new vehicle, and two I need a pickup truck, or at the very least the ability to tow a ton, or more if possible. 4x4 is also a must. I am rather enamoured of the Mitsubishi Outlander, but being a hybrid it is even more expensive. Allegedly it does 28 miles on battery only, which would be the vast majority of my trips. Seems a no brainer, and the finance could be paid for by the saving in fuel but as I wouldn't be any better off, what is the point?

All bit of a conundrum.

It's early days but there is already a market in second hand evs. I'd reckon that a hybrid is possibly the worst of both worlds. Tesla's pickup will be along soon, and no doubt others.

 

[Geoff_S]

Just had a look on the zap map site and it seems that the charging systems use 3 different plugs. No one standard plug, does that mean that you need 3 leads to take advantage of all the charging points?

The leads are usually on the charger. Cars have different types of receptacle on them. Most recent ones have more than one basic difference being speed of transfer.

And to add, the chargers are all run by different companies that you generally have to sign up to, all with slightly different rules.

 

[Rorschach]

Lets say your ev has a 200 mile range, then it would take you 3 to 4 hours to use that. Do you not stop for a cup of tea (and/or a pee!) after than sort of period?
EVs are not perfect but they are already a no-brainer for a lot of people and are getting significantly better over time.

Yeah ok lets say I could squeeze the full 200 miles out of it. At motorway speed that is just under 3 hours. When travelling I tend to stop for a pee every 1.5-2 hours. I might also have a sandwich etc. I sip water while driving as needed. My stops are around 10 minutes or so. In that 3 hours I might have spent 20 minutes on breaks maximum. It's still a good bit less than an enforced 1 hour minimum stop, assuming there is a charge point free for me to use right away.

A previous poster has already said you can't drain the battery fully if you want to get good life out of it. Going by those numbers of 80%-30%, So for best performance I might only get 100 miles for each 30 minute charge cycle. That means every 1.5 hours I have to stop for 30 minutes, so about the same time loss as our above calculation but now it means I need to find a free charging point every 100 miles of my journey and spend 1/3rd of time sat around waiting for the car to charge.

Not very practical at the moment is it?

 

[RogerS]

Now all you have to do, Keith, is convince my SWMBO !

Style - none unless it's a Tesla

Performance - poor unless it's a Tesla

Handling - poor unless it's a Tesla

And she is a worrier. You'd push her into an early grave if she had to fret about charging points. Which she will. If it was just me then I'd probably buy an EV. If I had the funds. Which I don't.

We don't have the faster 60kw , just the 40kw Leaf and it is no slouch and handles fine too. Leaves most ICE cars for dead away from the lights. Inside it's very plush, outside a bit bland as all Nissan's are.

From BBC Top Gear's review

.....It’s all very simple and relaxing if you fall into its way of doing things - smooth and silent and serene. Try and drive it like a GTI and of course it’ll push back at you.....

...Don’t get carried away on the motorway though. Doing outside-lane speeds drives a coach and horses through your range....

...But that’s an odd style of driving. You try to avoid sudden acceleration and braking. But in bends you’re frantically conserving your speed. So there’s an unnatural combination of low longitudinal g but high lateral....

...But the steering is depressingly remote of feel and the low-resistance tyres don’t cling very gamely, and the damping can get flustered....

Enough to put me off.

 

[Geoff_S]

It is a bit like having a car that breaks down every 100 miles you drive in one go. But that’s OK, because you’ve signed up to a recovery company who’ll get to you in an hour or so.

 

[RogerS]

Now all you have to do, Keith, is convince my SWMBO !

Style - none unless it's a Tesla

Performance - poor unless it's a Tesla

Handling - poor unless it's a Tesla

And she is a worrier. You'd push her into an early grave if she had to fret about charging points. Which she will. If it was just me then I'd probably buy an EV. If I had the funds. Which I don't.

Not sure what your mrs considers to be style but Mercedes do an all electric crv which looks pretty good. Performance and handling are surprisingly good and as always you get what you pay for.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3JOTiDlNUm4
Or perhaps a kia e nero
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m4OrOc_sXrU

For £65k I could buy a house up here !

 

[RogerS]

.....
The electronics in a car charger are pretty sophisticated and designed to ensure the safety of the user and the grid, for example many have their own earthing point.

From articles in Windpower Engineering & Development, we learn that lightning bolts carry from 5 kA to 200 kA and voltages vary from 40 kV to 120 kV. Your 'pretty sophisticated electronics' or a lightning bolt ? Who would win ? I know who I'd put my money on.

 

[MikeK]

I would love an electric vehicle, but until I can find one that meets my current needs, I'll keep my Ford pickup.

The only Tesla I've seen up close was on the back of an ADAC roll-back at an Autobahn Tankstelle (motorway filling station). I tried talking to the driver about the car because I had never seen one, but he was in a foul mood and didn't want to talk much. He was on his way to Augsburg and thought he had enough power to make it to the charging point. He tried to squeeze the last bit of juice out of the batteries, and the car stopped about two kilometers from the exit. While he waited for the ADAC to respond, a passing Polizei saw him and stopped to see if everything was okay. He received a €70 fine for running out of fuel on the Autobahn.

When I left him, he was number two in line for the charging station. There were lots of charging stations, but all were occupied.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

EVs will be a no brainer new purchase for most within 2-5 years. There will be exceptions - a few will be genuine but many will simply be a fear of the new.

And as ICE vehicle sales plummet so will the facilities supporting them - fuel station closures, some/many existing brands will go bust, increasing city and town centre bans etc.

Conversely the infrastructure supporting EVs will flourish - more and faster charging points, battery upgrade and reconditioning services etc. EVs also open the door to driverless technologies which I suspect is where the future is heading in cities and large towns.

But there is a personal "but". My wife has a 10 year old small Hyundai which she would like to change - probably for something similar in size but around a year old for ~£8-9k. She does less than 4000 miles a year so fuel savings will not be material. For the same cash outlay I can buy a 6 year old Nissan Leaf with 6 year old batteries and technology. A one or two year old Renault Zoe will be £14-16k.

I can't bring myself to double the spend without any real benefit! It's not urgent so will look again in a few months.

 

[jeremyduncombe]

The government sponsored rush to EVs is depressingly reminiscent of the similar rush to diesels a few years ago. Lots of enthusiasm but little knowledge - how many MPs have an education in science or technology ? Diesels were going to save the planet because they were so efficient, until we found out the emissions would kill us first. Now diesels have been demonised even though modern Diesel engines have lower real-life NO emissions than many small petrol engined cars.

Why do I feel the same way about EVs ? First, because of the enormous weight of the battery, EV’s get through tyres faster than comparable ICE vehicles. What happens when a tyre wears ? Yes, it produces toxic fine particles of rubber, so arguably an EV is as bad for your lungs as a diesel car.

Second, an electric motor may have a very long life, but the batteries have a finite life and there is currently no universal scheme for recharging them. The batteries contain toxic metals which are both in short supply and often mined in conflict areas.

And third, this ridiculous problem of recharging time. If I were still working and travelling all over the country, I would not want to stop for long periods to recharge my car.

I want to love electric cars, but I fear we are rushing in without properly considering the alternatives. Why not have a universal standard for battery packs, and design all new cars so that the batteries can be removed and replaced by robot. That would make filling up an electric car as fast, or even faster, than filling my tank with diesel. The filling stations would then bear the infrastructure costs of recycling worn out batteries and maintaining a ready supply of new ones. Or why not properly consider hydrogen fuel cells.

The problem is that this government ( like all others in recent decades ) leaves everything to market forces instead of directing the development of new technology. We have seen this with telecoms, where city dwellers enjoy ultrafast fibre broadband and are happily awaiting the rollout of 5G, while our copper cables give us a maximum of 5MB and the nearest village doesn’t even get a proper 3G signal. Meanwhile South Korea supplies 100MB fibre broadband to nearly every home in the country because they invested money and expertise in doing the job properly.

I hope EVs will be a triumphant success, but I suspect they will be enjoyed mainly by the better off while the poor have their diesel cars taken away and are forced onto buses. Fine if you live in a big city, but not out here in the countryside where the bus service is slow, intermittent and expensive.

End of diatribe. I can go and relax with a cup of tea now.

 

[transatlantic]

The government sponsored rush to EVs is depressingly reminiscent of the similar rush to diesels a few years ago. Lots of enthusiasm but little knowledge - how many MPs have an education in science or technology ? Diesels were going to save the planet because they were so efficient, until we found out the emissions would kill us first. Now diesels have been demonised even though modern Diesel engines have lower real-life NO emissions than many small petrol engined cars.

Why do I feel the same way about EVs ? First, because of the enormous weight of the battery, EV’s get through tyres faster than comparable ICE vehicles. What happens when a tyre wears ? Yes, it produces toxic fine particles of rubber, so arguably an EV is as bad for your lungs as a diesel car.

Second, an electric motor may have a very long life, but the batteries have a finite life and there is currently no universal scheme for recharging them. The batteries contain toxic metals which are both in short supply and often mined in conflict areas.

And third, this ridiculous problem of recharging time. If I were still working and travelling all over the country, I would not want to stop for long periods to recharge my car.

I want to love electric cars, but I fear we are rushing in without properly considering the alternatives. Why not have a universal standard for battery packs, and design all new cars so that the batteries can be removed and replaced by robot. That would make filling up an electric car as fast, or even faster, than filling my tank with diesel. The filling stations would then bear the infrastructure costs of recycling worn out batteries and maintaining a ready supply of new ones. Or why not properly consider hydrogen fuel cells.

The problem is that this government ( like all others in recent decades ) leaves everything to market forces instead of directing the development of new technology. We have seen this with telecoms, where city dwellers enjoy ultrafast fibre broadband and are happily awaiting the rollout of 5G, while our copper cables give us a maximum of 5MB and the nearest village doesn’t even get a proper 3G signal. Meanwhile South Korea supplies 100MB fibre broadband to nearly every home in the country because they invested money and expertise in doing the job properly.

I hope EVs will be a triumphant success, but I suspect they will be enjoyed mainly by the better off while the poor have their diesel cars taken away and are forced onto buses. Fine if you live in a big city, but not out here in the countryside where the bus service is slow, intermittent and expensive.

End of diatribe. I can go and relax with a cup of tea now.

The problem is that it's having to be rushed (quite rightly so). We're about 30-40 years too late at solving this problem, but then 30-40 years ago, we wouldn't have had the technology (arguably, we don't now).

It's a similar issue with plastics, ...we left it too late. Although I feel as though that problem could have been easily dealt with if companies weren't allowed to do exactly what they want.

 

[jeremyduncombe]

I’m not disagreeing with you Transatlantic. We have a serious problem with vehicle emissions and their health consequences. I hope we come up with the best solutions, not just the quickest ones. In a few years it won’t matter to me, but it will matter a lot to my son and to succeeding generations.

 

[Farmer Giles]

I queued up at the only filling station in the town a couple of weeks ago, it took me best part of 10 mins to get on a pump as people were buying their weekly shop after getting fuel and left their car at the pump. Then the pump only sold that stupid "advanced" fuel that costs more. I then queued to pay, somebody was buying their scratch card pension fund and vape needs as well as shopping and fuel. Total time, including brimming the Disco tank over 90 quid worth, almost 30 mins.

Wife got home, she plugged in the Leaf and forgot about it, 2 mins total and a couple of quid.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

And third, this ridiculous problem of recharging time. If I were still working and travelling all over the country, I would not want to stop for long periods to recharge my car.

I think your average sales rep won't want an electric car, but he may get one anyway because the running costs are so much lower for the fleet manager. I once knew a guy who drove 60,000 miles a year. Truly mad, but he seemed to think it was sensible.

Everyone else who gets hung up on this panic over not being able to drive 500 miles at the drop of a hat, just because it is a Sunday afternoon, is losing perspective. How often do you do a round trip of more than an hour? If you do, will you have a stop-over of less than half an hour? If it's almost never, then get an electric car. If it is twice a day, maybe not. Allegedly the average mileage in the UK is less than 8,000 per annum, or 150 miles in a week! It's unlikely everyone doing that much mileage or less is doing it in one hectic, frenetic journey, and then not touching the car for the rest of the week, so half the driving public will, on average, not exceed the limit anyway. On the one or two long trips a year, will it hurt to have to rest for a little longer?

 

[beech1948]

I am only now considering an EV. I am not and will not be a convert as I am ultimately only interested in the practical and pragmatic. What I do know now is:-

1) Air pollution has increased since the downturn in diesel sales of 2 yrs ago as the myriad small petrol engines used by most humans create more particulate matter than diesels. A fine cock up that was.

2) An EV with a limited range of say 120 miles in summer and maybe only 80 miles in winter is a no go because I travel around 18,000 miles per year. If I was forced to sit for say 0.5 hrs queuing up for a charge point and 45 minutes charging the drop in my productivity would have my employers screaming for me to be fired.

3) Making several 100 mile jumps +charge+wait to charge X3 to travel say 250 miles would be a ridiculous use of my time and a waste of my effort as 3x1.5 hrs would be wasted charging. Yup thats 4.5hrs per day and a repeat the next day ??

4) The problem with the Greens is that they have a strange view of what is real and what is not.

5) Governments views and knowledge level is laughably poor and any rush to EVs will result in an outcome detrimental to the UK. Pretty certain that will become true.

6) The level of innovation being pursued by the EV industry is poor and quite low level.

7) Nissan have ( I'm told) a hydrogen fuel cell vehicle with a range of 320 miles. That seems like it could be worth pursuing but the EV people will decry it even when they can't emulate the fuel cells range.

I expect at some time to be forced into an EV. Probably a politically correct thing to do by the passive aggressive authorities and damn the impracticality. When faced with a 50% drop in my productivity ( read sales ability) the government will be faced with irate businesses clamoring for action.

I will accept an EV when the daily range is in the 400+ miles per day. Until then it is a triumph of hope over reason.

 

[AJB Temple]

I will add some practical experience here. My business partner persuaded me when we replaced our cars that the Tesla Model X was a better choice than a hybrid BMW X5 or Volvo 90. The Range Rover hybrid was not launched then. We bought two, about 18 months ago. They are excellent.

For us, as early adopters, it is practically free motoring. We have lifetime use of Tesla superchargers for free. The running costs are incredibly cheap - I also have an Audi Q7 diesel, over 10 years old now - and that is £100 quid to fill and has a range of 500 miles and servicing is not cheap. The Tesla servicing costs are practically zero (electric motors - hardly anything needs touching) and as we both mainly charge up on the Tesla superchargers at Bluewater, the fuel cost is trivial.

No1 offspring is at uni in Delft (Netherlands) - which is a fair trek. I can do that trip with one supercharger stop (free) at a hotel on the motorway near Antwerp, recharge at Delft (free) and same coming home. It takes me 30 mins to charge at a supercharger. I just grab a coffee and relax.

Electric cars have full on performance in linear fashion from the off. I had a BMW M4 previously (very quick car) and the Model X is easily as quick as that in acceleration. Doesn't handle anywhere near as well, but it's a big SUV.

High speed driving kills the range, but if I drive fully legally with 100% charge the range is close to 300 miles (It claims 330). The car plans your route via chargers if needed.

Recent tests have shown that treated properly, batteries will retain 98% efficiency after 8 years.

I bought the Teslas because she persuaded me. She was right.

 

[powertools]

Given that we know from experience that a modern petrol engine up to about 1500cc running on modern fuel and lubricant with minimal maintenance is good for about 200.000 miles do we have any reliable information on how long the motor in an ev will last?

 

[Rorschach]

How much did your lifetime of free motoring cost to buy? I am seeing the current price is over £86k. Not exactly in the remit for the average person is it? :roll:

 

[Woody2Shoes]

.....
The electronics in a car charger are pretty sophisticated and designed to ensure the safety of the user and the grid, for example many have their own earthing point.

From articles in Windpower Engineering & Development, we learn that lightning bolts carry from 5 kA to 200 kA and voltages vary from 40 kV to 120 kV. Your 'pretty sophisticated electronics' or a lightning bolt ? Who would win ? I know who I'd put my money on.

At least one of us is a member of what used to be known as the Institute of Electrical Engineers. I know which one I'd put my money on...

 

[Trevanion]

This is turning into a very interesting discussion.

What recently totally changed my perception of 'leccy cars from "Pah, they'll never be as good as dino fuel burners in any way" to "Now you have my attention" was the Tesla Model S (supped-up mind!), doing 0 - 60 in under three seconds. Of course, it would be absolutely ludicrous on UK roads to be going from a standstill to that speed in such a short space of time but it made me realise that they're actually getting somewhere with the tech now, plus the fact you'll get 300 miles out of it.

The Porsche Taycan on Top Gear the other night was quite something too.

It's definitely going to be something to consider in the near future for myself I think since I rarely leave a twenty-mile radius of home :lol:.