Double side gate Help needed.

[Markymark]

Hi

I have a project where I am making a tall 6' 6" high fence incorporating two gate posts for an opening of 1800mm wide. I have to make two gates for the opening. I have an option to make two even sized or one 3' 6" wide and the other what evers left. The Fence and gates will be lattice pattern filled, to allow wind to perculate.

The question is, Best method of making gates for a beginner and what timber to use as the gate posts are made from fencing timber pressure treated soft wood. Weight will be an issue and strength. Of course it will have to be water resitant.

Any guiding instructions welcome.

Mark

 

[mailee]

Hello Mark. I build gates with pressure treated softwood and think the best method is to build them as a M&T framework. For the sizes you want I would go for a pair of gates of even proportions with a central rail. If you rebate around the insde edges of the gates you can fit the lattice work into this and maybe make a bead to hold them in. (Not quite sure what you mean by lattice BTW?) I assume you mean a trellis type of filler. HTH. :wink:

 

[Markymark]

Thanks Mailee

Sorry wrote in a rush. I will rebate like you said and buy some timber lattice sheets.

I was worried about using Pressure treated softwood because the quality of the timber our wood yard supplies is very poor. Its stored outside and seems of poor quality , cheapest fastest spruce. Lots of knots . May be time to look for a better fencing timber supplier?

That said it would match up with the fencing.

Mark

 

[Chris_belgium]

I did something similar but used hardwood, I used mortice and tenon joints, used my router to make them, worked quite well. The gate has been installed for nearly two years and no problems so far. Dimensions for the gate was 1400mm tall, 1000mm wide.

In addition to glue I also dowelled the m&t joints.

some pics:

Nearly finished

Simple jig for the mortice

Similar jig for the tenon

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[Markymark]

Chris

Thanks for the pics. I have a morticer, but I am interested in the tenoning Jig you made will it work for all tenons?

Mark

 

[mailee]

Yes Mark, that will work for all your tennons. Chris has it spot on. I use this method if I have to cut larger tennons than I can produce with my tablesaw or my other tennoning jig for the router. If you have to buy the timber from your merchants I would check it for twist or warping when you buy it other than that it should be OK. Chris has also given you good advice on dowelling the joints as well as glue, I use this method all the time for gates and it works well. I have just replaced a set of gates this year that I made in softwood eight years ago! Of course hardwood is the best thing to use but expensive. HTH

 

[Chris_belgium]

Chris

Thanks for the pics. I have a morticer, but I am interested in the tenoning Jig you made will it work for all tenons?

Mark

This jig is 'custom' made for this size of wood. Goes really quick, just nailed it together with an air gun (sorry don't know correct word for it). You first make a big tenon wich goes all the way from the left to the right of the wood, and then I cut the shoulders with a hand saw. The routing part goes really good, the cutting of the shoulders by hand didn't go so well for me since at that time I didn't have a proper hand saw or a block plane to clean up after the sawing, but all in all it wen't a lot better than I expected.

One tip migh be to buy a dedicated tenon router cutter, these are large diameter and give you a nice sharp shoulder.

The dowels you can make yourself if you have a drillpress, just cut the wood slightly oversize (if you want a 10mm dowel, cut a 12mm square), then take an ordinary nut slightly smaller than the diameter you are aiming for, drill it out till you have the wanted diameter, use an angle grinder and make 6 notches in the top face of the nut.
Use a rasp to round off the top of the squared wood so it will fit in the chuck (spelling) of the drillpress, also use the rasp to make the other end conical, and then gently push it through the nut at low speed. I was sceptical myself when I read this tip on this forum, but have used it a couple of times and it works really well!

 

[Markymark]

I used Hardwood pegs (tapered) on my Bench and used a draw pegged method. Making the hole through the mortice and the tenon slightly out of alignment and hammered the pegs through with glue on. I gently dried the hardwood so it would swell when in my garage and pull the Mortice and tenon together better.

Works a treat.

Thanks for the advice.

With regards to the mortice using PT softwood, I find the fibres of the wood dont cut easily and it makes a poor mortice. Would you recommend through mortices (not sure about the terminology) I was not sure about having the ends of the grain exposed in the inclement weather.

Mark

 

[Markymark]

I used Hardwood pegs (tapered) on my Bench and used a draw pegged method. Making the hole through the mortice and the tenon slightly out of alignment and hammered the pegs through with glue on. I gently dried the hardwood so it would swell when in my garage and pull the Mortice and tenon together better.

Works a treat.

Thanks for the advice.

With regards to the mortice using PT softwood, I find the fibres of the wood dont cut easily and it makes a poor mortice. Would you recommend through mortices (not sure about the terminology) I was not sure about having the ends of the grain exposed in the inclement weather.

Mark

 

[Derek Willis.]

Use through tenons with wedges for super strength, this is what I have done on about six occassions, using treated timber and the whole thing finished with several coats of Sadolins, is enough for up to five years before any further treatment..
Derek.

 

[Benchwayze]

If you want something durable that you can fit and forget (More or less), go for:

Green Oak,
Western Red Cedar
Pitch Pine

In that order for me.

It won't be cheap, but it won't be prohibitive either.

If you do work with pressure treated timber, there is a problem with the dust from cutting, as the chemical they use for treatment can be hazardous.

HTH and best of Luck

 

[Markymark]

ummmm...my Wood yard is selling green oak at the moment. Locally felled I think. I would be afraid to work with it as I know not what I am doing. I have visions of it all warping and twisting.

Can you use green oak with your machines?


Mark

 

[Benchwayze]

Hi Mark,

If the prospect of working green timber is daunting, then I would advise the Cedarwood. I've never had any failures with that.

If you follow Derek's advice you should also have a good set of gates that will last. With pressure treated, it's best to be able to pick over what you want, if you are after really good looking timber.

Plenty of workers swear by green timber and I have used it, but machining means light cuts on a planer, care over kick-back on saws and it can be messy. If you turn it, as is often done, sometimes you need to don oil-skins! :lol:

For cedar wood and a number of good alternatives, have a look at:

http://www.sykestimber.co.uk/

They suggest what each species is good for and they will fill orders on smaller quantities. They are also good with delivery charges.

Good Luck

John

 

[Markymark]

Thanks for all the advise.

One more thing though. If I use either Green Oak or Treated Softwood can I put it through my P/T without any problems?

Mark

 

[Derek Willis.]

Put it through your P/T but be prepared to have to resharpen your blades, as it is not too good for them.
Derek.

 

[Markymark]

Thanks for the advise so far.

Here's how its gone. I am using Pressure treat timber, which I have to say is hard to source completley straight and untwisted, I am wanting to run the rails through all the posts using Mortices. My question is what is the best way to cut two tenons to go through either side of the same through mortice? This is to give the impression that the rails run though the posts.

Mark

 

[Benchwayze]

If the rail is being tenoned into a post from both sides, the tenons should butt together at 45 degrees to give you the maximum area of support and length along the tenon. In other words, an opposing triangular tenon on each rail-end

 

[Markymark]

Hi

I think I understand. The two triangular tenons make up a full tenon. I would love to draw a picture but I do not have a clue how to insert it in to post.

My worry is the end through mortice is end wedged and I am wondering how to secure the triangular tenons?

Mark

 

[mailee]

It depends on how wide your posts are but I would say use dowels and peg them. JMO :wink:

 

[Markymark]

75mm sq Posts. 75mm Sq rails.

May be the two end posts would keep the through triangular tenons in place?

Mark