Double or single glaze door?

[Jacob]

Ooh Lons did you write all that yourself? :lol: :lol:

 

[Lons]

Ooh Lons did you write all that yourself? :lol: :lol:

Google it

 

[John Brown]

Not sure what the controversy is here. Unless my understanding of thermodynmics is totally wrong, the only thermal energy in a thermal mass store is energy that has been put into it. So it's useful for storing excess energy that is not needed at a given time, but would otherwise be lost. Plus of course, a thermal store has cost.

What's Jacob so wrong about?

To be honest, I'm all at sea here.
We need to know where the goalpost are to start with, before we can talk about moving them.
Mike is obviously an expert in this stuff, but what he says is counter-intuitive to me.
I must be missing some information as to the conditions.
Am I to assume that the goal here is to achieve a constant temperature inside the box/house?
If so, then this does not mirror real life for many, who may be at work during the day, and are accustomed to lowering the temperature. And we all know that heat loss is proportional to temperature gradient.
If I assume no sun, and an outside temperature lower than the desired inside temperature, then my tiny brain cannot fathom how thermal mass can reduce heat input. This would be tantamount to free energy, would it not?
I'm not trying to start an argument here, I genuinely want to understand the principles involved, and/or the assumed conditions.

 

[Rorschach]

Not sure what the controversy is here. Unless my understanding of thermodynmics is totally wrong, the only thermal energy in a thermal mass store is energy that has been put into it. So it's useful for storing excess energy that is not needed at a given time, but would otherwise be lost. Plus of course, a thermal store has cost.

What's Jacob so wrong about?

I am not sure either.
If I were building a house here (ignoring building regs) I wouldn't be going for thermal mass, it doesn't fit my lifestyle and low energy use. Might work for old folk who spend all day at home with the heating on 20C + but not for me.
I would be going for a cheap but well insulated structure with plenty of solar PV and some of the storage methods I mentioned before.

 

[doctor Bob]

I don't think everyone is saying Jacob is wrong, the issue is more and more are just sussing that he is a typical know it all. An expert on every subject, usually from google, some dubious anecdotal evidence but never ever backed up by pictures or experience. There is never any step down if the evidence is against him, he just continues to know it all, calling black white.
He implies he has built/made/ constructed/been involved with most stuff, dismissed virtually all modern inventions, has anecdotal evidence coming out of his butt.
We all know this type of chap, my one is from the village pub. Harmless, we let him get away with it usually because it's quite entertaining that he genuinely thinks we all believe him. The other day he was explaining to my wife, an Air Traffic Controller, why it was an unnecessary industry, because road traffic can manage itself, air traffic could too, fantastic reasoning but total rubbish........
Quite happy to let him continue, it's an open forum and anyone can say anything, IMHO.

 

[Jacob]

......
He implies he has built/made/ constructed/been involved with most stuff,

No. I stick carefully with what I think I know something about, however little!

dismissed virtually all modern inventions,

No. Just the over selling of gadgets and the under appreciation of trad skills/knowledge

.......
Quite happy to let him continue, it's an open forum and anyone can say anything, IMHO.

Well thanks very much.
It does get tedious though - the endless attacks from the same very small group who never actually have anything interesting or useful to say, but just send threads off into the wilderness. Really really boring. Like being followed by a little team of miserable and utterly useless Gollums!

 

[Sheffield Tony]

I hate to see energy wasted.

Wonder if there's an efficient way to recycle Jacob's hot air? :wink:

When I visited the Reichstag building in Berlin, the audio guide delicately explained that the dome design by Foster and partners allowed energy to be recovered from the hot air rising from the parliament chamber below. We could heat much of London if we had a similar parliament building, I should have thought.

 

[RobinBHM]

I think this concept of thermal mass -good or bad in terms of energy cost is very interesting.

I often get asked advice about underfloor heating, whether to use in screed wet or electric as opposed above screed. Or even, screed, then marmox type insulation then heat mat.

electric underfloor heating suppliers reckon cables above the screed is best -it can then heat the screed and at the same time warm up the tiles faster.

Ive visited jobs that have had in-screed wet systems and they really do heat an orangery very effectively.

But how they all compare in real world long terms energy usage, Im not sure.

One thing about wet underfloor systems is they use a mix of flow and return, so I think they add a small load to a boiler. Over a winter, probably a system on all the time does not need much heat to maintain the screed mass at its set temperature. And in an orangery, solar gain probably helps heat the floor if its tiled as well.

One other thing, underlfoor heating seems quite effective to me for orangeries because the heat is kept close to the floor, wheras radiators would create convection currents and the hot air would end up at high level in the lantern space.

I think an important aspect of thermal mass in a house is that once it is at temperature, it only requires small amount of heat in put to maintain its required set temperature. If the thermal mass is very insulated then any heat loss is going into the living space.

I have a feeling doing simulated models of the energy usage would be quite complicated.

 

[doctor Bob]

Well thanks very much.
It does get tedious though - the endless attacks from the same very small group who never actually have anything interesting or useful to say

I like to think my workshop open day in the past and the future will help people. The images of my kitchens and furniture, the techniques in doing round cabinets, the pictures of workshop techniques will have helped a great deal of persons. The free tools I sent to people when I had a workshop clearance, the van loads of offcuts people have taken from my workshop on a regular basis have always been appreciated, anyone want any off cuts, give me a call anytime, I'll fill your car. The guys on here who have set up businesses and maybe spent an hour on the phone with me or called in to seek advice. The chap (who drove from wales to east anglia, because it was incredible value)from the forum who bought my bandsaw for £250, real value probably £1200, but I'd rather see someone off the forum use and enjoy than some wally of ebay try and haggle or mess me around. To the chaps which have used my wide belt sander for table tops, to the forum members which use my wide thicknesser, to the forum members who have borrowed tools, you are welcome. The thanks I've received has been most welcomed.

To be honest Jacob the last picture you posted here of something you had made was about 12 years ago of a table, even then, for humour you substituted the picture for a picture of a bare bottomed woman riding a bike. Just saying.
As tradition seems to enforce, I'll drop out of the thread now.

 

[Jacob]

......
As tradition seems to enforce, I'll drop out of the thread now.

Cheerio. You will be back, Gollums never give up!

 

[John Brown]

Why don't all the Jacob anti-groupies go and start a "We hate Jacob" thread, so that any useful information some of us are hoping to gain, doesn't get lost in the noise?

I think MikeG can probably make his case quite effectively without the help of a bunch of pitchfork wielding cheerleaders.

 

[RogerS]

Why don't all the Jacob anti-groupies go and start a "We hate Jacob" thread, so that any useful information some of us are hoping to gain, doesn't get lost in the noise?

I think MikeG can probably make his case quite effectively without the help of a bunch of pitchfork wielding cheerleaders.

Clearly your definition of 'useful' when it applies to many of Jacob's posts does not concur with the definition of 'useful' in my copy of the OED.

 

[OscarG]

I'd argue the useful information would be more available if your pet troll was gently escorted back to the BBC thread, and close the gate next time so it can't get out.

Every thread he gets involved in turns into an argument with the conversation revolving around him, he's a troll, this is what he does, it's a repeating pattern. Yet the people who identify this pattern and sometimes gently make fun of it (guilty!) are the problem not the troll himself?

Interesting.

Wonder if anyone else suffers this problem of being picked on by "pitchfork wielding cheerleaders"? I'm gonna say no. :wink:

 

[RobinBHM]

I quite like Jacob really , he often has opinions that differ from mine, but that is an opportunity to challenge my own opinions.....

Jacob has an unswerving ability to argue he can never be wrong, even in the face of incontrovertible evidence to the contrary. Somehow that seems to really wind some people up. It doesn't bother me, after all, the forums more fun with the old bugger =D>

 

[Jacob]

...
Every thread he gets involved in turns into an argument with the conversation revolving around him, he's a troll, this is what he does, it's a repeating pattern. Yet the people who identify this pattern and sometimes gently make fun of it (guilty!) are the problem not the troll himself?

No. the problem is with the gollums like yourself who have nothing interesting or useful to say on so many topics but instead turn their attention to attacking other posters. If you don't want to have a conversation revolving around me then don't keep f****g starting them and winding them up, you tedious boring twerps.
Set yourself a challenge - see if you can manage a few posts which would actually be interesting , welcome and not about me. A race between gollums - see who gets to five first!
PS I'd also point out that non of our gollums have attempted to make the slightest comment or contribution to anything else in this thread (and many others), presumably because you having nothing useful or interesting to say, as usual.

 

[scooby]

I'm sure theres a feature on most forums where you can add people to an ignore list so you dont have to read their posts...

 

[RogerS]

.....
PS I'd also point out that non of our gollums have attempted to make the slightest comment or contribution to anything else in this thread (and many others), presumably because you having nothing useful or interesting to say, as usual.

That's not fair! It means I'm not being included in the Gollum Club.

 

[Jacob]

I'm sure theres a feature on most forums where you can add people to an ignore list so you don't have to read their posts...

Yes just done it - again! That's OscarG, RogerS, Lons, doctor Bob.
I won't know if any of them will reach 5 consecutive interesting posts so please let me know if they manage it, though it's extremely unlikely.
I've listed them so anybody else can copy paste if they want to do the same.

 

[RogerS]

I'm sure theres a feature on most forums where you can add people to an ignore list so you dont have to read their posts...

Yes just done it - again! That's OscarG, RogerS, Lons, DrBob.
I won't know if any of them will reach 5 consecutive interesting posts so please let me know if they manage it, though it's extremely unlikely.
I've listed them so anybody else can copy paste if they want to do the same.

You've gone and hurt my feelings, Jacob. Now I'll never get to join The Gollum Club.

 

[OscarG]

I'm sure theres a feature on most forums where you can add people to an ignore list so you dont have to read their posts...

Yes just done it - again! That's OscarG, RogerS, Lons, DrBob.
I won't know if any of them will reach 5 consecutive interesting posts so please let me know if they manage it, though it's extremely unlikely.
I've listed them so anybody else can copy paste if they want to do the same.

You've gone and hurt my feelings, Jacob. Now I'll never get to join The Gollum Club.

It's ok, you can join me in my cosy safe space.

It's made of a cardboard box, heated by a candle and fitted with single glazed windows, none of that fancy trombe wall, doubled glazed, money wasting thermal nuclear low energy nonsense. :wink: