Does better steel get sharper?

[Graham Orm]

The trouble with our OPs question (Does better steel get sharper?) is that it is meaningless unless you can define "better" steel in a way which doesn't take into account sharpening, which for an edge tool would also be meaningless. It's circular.

You're splitting hairs just for the sake of it Jacob. The word 'better' is defined by the description 'ball bearing grade steel' the bar is set by that statement, the assumption of the populus being that the 5001's are made from 'better' steel and so are sought after and acclaimed. They have acheived this noteriety simply because they are 'better' than most.

 

[Jacob]

The trouble with our OPs question (Does better steel get sharper?) is that it is meaningless unless you can define "better" steel in a way which doesn't take into account sharpening, which for an edge tool would also be meaningless. It's circular.

You're splitting hairs just for the sake of it Jacob. The word 'better' is defined by the description 'ball bearing grade steel' the bar is set by that statement, the assumption of the populus being that the 5001's are made from 'better' steel and so are sought after and acclaimed. They have acheived this noteriety simply because they are 'better' than most.

"Ball bearing grade steel" is specific (I presume) but "better" is very vague.
So you question makes sense if you rephrase it "Does Ball bearing grade steel get sharper?" except that you have to ask "sharper than what". So it's still circular.

But yes 5001s get to stay sharper than some softer steel chisels, but may be too hard for some jobs.

 

[bugbear]

I think harder is generally deemed better.

For example, an experienced woodworker said this a while back:

If I wanted 2nd hand better than Marples (the old blue handled ones) I'd look for Stanley 5001s which were top of the range back then. Identical shape but black handle and harder steel.

:wink:

BugBear

You've been in my archive again! Well spotted BB keep up the good work.

You keep spoutin' inconsistencies, I'll keep pointin' 'em out.

More generally, woodworkers have always avoided steel that takes a good edge, and holds it.

No, wait, hang on, that can't be right!

BugBear

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Might be worth noting for the non-metallurgists amongst us that a given grade of tool steel can be 'harder' or 'softer' depending on the heat treatment it's received.

Straight carbon steels (and the simpler alloys) achieve their maximum hardness when heated to their critical temperature and then cooled very fast - quenched. The rate of quench can be altered by using different quenchants; caustic soda is one of the fastest, brine is fast, cold water a bit slower, warm water slower still, then oils of various types and finally air (for straight carbon steels, oils and air tend to be too slow, but they work well for some alloy steels). A faster quench gives a harder steel.

However, in the fully-hard condition, the steel is very brittle. Some toughness can be re-introduced by tempering back, the amount of tempering controlling the final toughness, but at the expense of hardness.

Thus, 1% straight carbon steel hardened and tempered back to about 150 centigrade is very hard and quite brittle, but makes good finish turning tools for materials like brass. Temper back to 300 centigrade, and the steel loses a bit of hardness, but gains enough toughness to make springs and sawblades. Other types of tool are somewhere in between - you could have quite hard and slightly brittle paring chisels, or slightly softer but tougher mortice chisels from the same steel by controlling the tempering temperature.

Thus, it's not necessarily right to say that harder is better. Harder is more brittle, generally.

 

[bugbear]

Thus, it's not necessarily right to say that harder is better. Harder is more brittle, generally.

Of course, the whole point of some "interesting" alloys is to be hard(er) without being (too)brittle.

BugBear

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Thus, it's not necessarily right to say that harder is better. Harder is more brittle, generally.

Of course, the whole point of some "interesting" alloys is to be hard(er) without being (too)brittle.

BugBear

Indeed so!

But steel metallurgy is complex indeed - one good source for anybody wanting to explore further is 'Engineering Metallurgy' by Higgins. Part 1 is the relevant volume. Warning - it's a well written text, but the subject can still be heavy going.

 

[Graham Orm]

"Ball bearing grade steel" is specific (I presume) but "better" is very vague.
So you question makes sense if you rephrase it "Does Ball bearing grade steel get sharper?" except that you have to ask "sharper than what". So it's still circular.

But yes 5001s get to stay sharper than some softer steel chisels, but may be too hard for some jobs.

OK Sheldon.....errr I mean Jacob. :wink: :lol:

 

[Jacob]

I think harder is generally deemed better.

For example, an experienced woodworker said this a while back:

.......
:wink:

BugBear

You've been in my archive again! Well spotted BB keep up the good work.

You keep spoutin' inconsistencies, I'll keep pointin' 'em out.

More generally, woodworkers have always avoided steel that takes a good edge, and holds it.

No, wait, hang on, that can't be right!

BugBear

I wouldn't trouble yourself too much BB I don't think you'll get it. :roll:
I think you should go and play in the garden while the sun is still shining.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Thus, it's not necessarily right to say that harder is better. Harder is more brittle, generally.

Of course, the whole point of some "interesting" alloys is to be hard(er) without being (too)brittle.

BugBear

Exactly.

Good Grief ... I posted on this earlier in this thread - elasticity vs hardness, and how to add the former to the latter.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Downwindtracker2]

I worked in a wire mill. The simple answer is yes. Steel varies greatly in quality within the same grade depending on the steel mill ,heck even between batches from the same mill. Batches are called heat numbers, BTW

 

[Corneel]

Toughness and wear resistance are opposites in steel. And that's the job of the metalurgist, finding a good balance for the job at hand. And because handtool woodworking is not a real factor in the market anymore, we choose from what is available. But don't expect miracles anytime soon. PMV-11 seems to be heading in the right direction. It's still fairly expensive stuff though. Which also is a factor.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

The new Stanley Sweetheart chisels are made from the same alloy as the old 5001's BTW. They sharpen well but not quite as well as Ashley Iles. Probably a bit tougher, though. Both are head and shoulders over Fat Max!

Mike.

 

[Graham Orm]

Hello,

The new Stanley Sweetheart chisels are made from the same alloy as the old 5001's BTW. They sharpen well but not quite as well as Ashley Iles. Probably a bit tougher, though. Both are head and shoulders over Fat Max!

Mike.

That's the answer Iwas looking for Mike! I've filled my box with crispy sharp 5001's and ditched the FatMax's.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I don't know why Stanley didn't continue making the 5001 chisel. I cut my teeth on them and they were great. Nice fine lands, too, so it can be done, though sadly not on the new Sweetheart line. My set are as old as me, bought by my dad the year I was born. They are now butt chisels, in my collection, after a life of use the. Blades are about 1 1/2 long, but still going strong. I rehandled them with short bubinga handles, so they an be used where other chisels dare not go. I might look for some more used ones, though I have loads of chisels already. Still, the remind me of my dad, so where is the harm having a few more!

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

Hello,

I don't know why Stanley didn't continue making the 5001 chisel.....

Lack of demand I guess.
It's easy to forget the massive shift in the market from about 1960 to now, with the decline in hand tool trade use. That's why we have vast quantities of old tools available dirt cheap. Even cheaper if you want wooden planes.
They still supply what the trade wants and needs (Fatmax etc) but the new generation of amateurs, or born again hand toolies, don't get catered for so well.
I bought a few new 5001s in about 1970 but only because they'd run out of much cheaper blue handled ones*. The 5001s were top of the range.

*from Hazelhursts in Derby - an old established proper tool shop long since disappeared. The rot was setting in then - I asked for a mortice chisel (my first one ever) but the lad behind the counter didn't know what they were. The queue of old chaps behind me were derisive - "it's a chisel for cutting mortices yer daft t.wat" etc etc

 

[Corneel]

The 5001's have a fair bit of chrome in it, which gives the steel a certain amount of toughness for its hardness. But chrome reduces the level of sharpness a bit; the wire edge is clingy and does not break away as cleanly as a purer carbon steel. A plain carbon steel, for equivalent hardness, will be sharper, but will not quite have the toughness.

Mike.

I reach back a little in this thread, because I think this is not quite correct. Chrome doesn't make a steel tough, it makes it more wear resistant. Take for example O1, A2 and D2. They have increasing amounts of chrome (0.5%, 5% and 12% resp.). O1 is tougher then A2, which is tougher then D2, and the wear resistance is the other way around. Vanadium has a similar effect. They are also very hard, so they make sharpening more difficult.

Why is this? These elements form carbides and during cooling these clump together in large crystals. Around these large crystals there is tension in the steel and microcracks can appear. Molybdenum has the effect of reducing the grain size so enhances the toughness, Manganese helps with hardening. Every element has its own pecularities.

PMV-11 is a stainless tool steel with more then 15% chrome. So why is it still tough? The steel cools while it is "powderised" so it cools very fast. This reduces the tendency to form large crystals. The smaller grains also make the steel easier to sharpen, but because chromium carbide is so hard, it is not as easy to sharpen as O1.

 

[Trafalgar]

PM-V11 is almost assuredly nothing more than a private label steel. No different than a large dairy who packages milk under a large supermarket chain's name and under its own as well, and maybe several others.

I haven't seen the use of the word "proprietary" in any of Lee Valley's online marketing blurb for PM-V11. If I've missed it, I'd be happy if somebody pointed it out to me.

 

[Corneel]

I allready wrote that. It is just a standard stainless knife steel.
And LV didn't claim they invented it. They claim that they investigated a lot of likely candidates.

 

[Trafalgar]

I think it's a point worth emphasizing.

One wonders why they gave it a proprietary name when surely it has a simple trade name like A2. I don't care for A2 but I do appreciate the fact that Lie-Nielsen felt no need to *** it up with something other than the name for which the formulation is commonly known.

I'm sure if I rang up a steel supplier and attempted to place an order for PM-V11 they wouldn't have the foggiest.

If it was simply one of dozens of candidates then what's to hide? Why not identify it by its trade name, ANSI name, or whatever standards organization would cover this.

Sometimes marketing guile can be insulting. We're supposed to just accept that this is a 'better steel' without being able to inform ourselves as to its content or just its regular trade name in the industry. The only way to find out is to buy some of it, so, sale made I guess.

Lie-Nielsen, Stanley with its new line, Hock, Holtey no less -- no confusion about what you're buying. You can make an informed decision about the honing media you currently own and whether it will require 'upgrading' and whether it's worth all that plus other factors.

The whole thing leaves me cold.

 

[Jacob]

....
The whole thing leaves me cold.

The whole thing leaves me uninterested.
In the beginning I did listen to all the baloney and bought a Hock blade and a Smoothcut for a no4 and 5. They are different from the originals (and each other) but are otherwise pointless and a waste of money.