Does better steel get sharper?

[G S Haydon]

Thanks for the helpful post CC!

My knowledge of tool making is pretty limited. I like the cut of Narex's jib, great value tools made to a high quality standard and enough for David Savage to recommend to his students "These Narex blades are, to my mind, exceptionally good value and I will be recommending them to students here." I've found tool his tool list to be broadly very good http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/woodworking_tools.htm and well worth a visit for a list of tools when you want to be at the highest level.

I love the motoring analogy and I know the thrust of your point but I reckon the performance is closer than Ford > Ferrari. And, like you said I'm all for people buying all kinds of things, Holtey, LN, Stanley, whatever they like and at whatever the cost however within reason none of them are the Golden Ticket to perfect results at the bench. Time and practice are much more important.

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

I don't have O1, A2, M2, M4, D2, CPM-3V, and PM-V11 in constant use in my set of tools. Heaven knows I like to experiment and see how other things work but I think most people interested in making something would be better served by practicing paring, chopping, sharpening and sawing to a line using a set of chisels from a supermarket and an appropriate saw rather than worrying about how long and edge might last.

Just my 2d's worth

Hi Graham

Keep in mind that I was not stating which steel is "best". My post was to show that there are pros and cons to all the steels, that evaluation of them is not a simple matter as in Charles' pronouncement which was good and which was poor since his sharpening media is not up to getting the steels sharp in the first place. Furthermore, the title of this thread is "Does better steel get sharper?"

Incidentally, do you really think that I sit around and experiment rather than building stuff?

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[G S Haydon]

Hey Derek,

I fear with this kind of thread the tone of voice and body language is lost. I'm sorry if my responses have been taken as personal. I enjoy seeing your projects and reading your posts and I'm thankful you take the time to discuss this stuff with me, I enjoy it! I'll extend that offer of a cold one you made me a while back should you ever find yourself in my neck of the woods.

On Grayorm's point about better steel getting sharper we would first have to agree about "better". The Fatmax is a better steel for site tools, the 5001 or whatever better for fine work etc etc. The sharpest always seems to be simple carbon steels.

The thrust of my point was that someone wanting to improve "people" would be better served not worrying too much and steel that's easier to hone would be easier to deal with for them. Then focus on the practice and making

The "people" did not mean "Derek". I know I've bought and then sold more planes over the past few years than is healthy to learn about them as I find the topic interesting and I wanted to find out for myself what suited me best. I'm sure you find the same with the tools steels, methods of work too.

 

[Trafalgar]

If one's upgrade path is essentially infinite then the debate is meaningless. Rest assured there will be a "new" steel in a year or so and babies everywhere will go out with the bathwater.

 

[rafezetter]

When grinding out a nick, you've no option but to grind past the edge. I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say that micro-cracking WILL occur, just that if you end up with an edge that seems a bit brittle, it might have happened. However, just carry on using and re-honing, and if it has happened, the chances are that intervals between rehonings will increase as the damage is honed away.

On the softwood problem - yes, I know exactly what you mean! In some respects, soft, open-grained woods can be a harder challenge than harder, denser ones; they tend to crush rather than cut. They really demand sharper edges than some harder woods. If possible, using a slicing rather than stabbing cut can help, thogh that's not always possible - cleaning up dovetails, for example. Another thing some have tried is a lower bevel angle, but regrinding bevels for different woods can shorten chisels faster than most of us would like! Some people keep a few paring chisels with a lower bevel angle than their chopping chisels, and use those for situations like this - not with a mallet though! Probably the best solution is keeping the edge dead sharp, and touching up on the polishing stone more often than you usually would, and being a bit pragmatic about surfaces that will be hidden after assembly - work from both sides so that surfaces are cut clean to the marked line, and don't obcess too much about the middle, hidden, bit.

Thanks for the reply, I did take the pragmatic view in the end, and stopped stressing about the middle bit, and I did as best I could to have crisp edges as I made the layout lines deeper from each side with my marking knife that did slice better; as you say probably down to the fact the blade is only 1.5mm thick and a very shallow cutting angle. I've enough chisels I can spare a small one and make it a shallow paring chisel - I need a skew with shallower shoulders anyway.

 

[woodbrains]

hereby pronounce that any steel which you can't easily get sharp, is useless!
If you have to buy special kit it might make more sense to dump the tool instead and get your money back on ebay.

Sharpening is an essential and continuous part of the process just like sharpening a pencil if you were drawing. It needs to be easy. The tool needs to be usable.

Hello,

I suppose Hengis Pod made a similar statement when someone tried to get him to change his bronze sword for a steel one! :lol: 'Try this nice new steel sword, Hengis, to repel the Romans. But you won't be able to use a bit of sandstone to put an edge on it. No? sure? OK suit yerself'

By that logic, Japanese chisels are useless if one doesn't own waterstones. It is an odd assertion that one should only own tools that a previously owned maintenance kit will service. Surely you get the tools you need then the stuff to take care of them. All metallurgists please stop devising new steels, because they out perform out oilstones and we won't change!

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

hereby pronounce that any steel which you can't easily get sharp, is useless!
If you have to buy special kit it might make more sense to dump the tool instead and get your money back on ebay.

Sharpening is an essential and continuous part of the process just like sharpening a pencil if you were drawing. It needs to be easy. The tool needs to be usable.

Hello,

I suppose Hengis Pod made a similar statement when someone tried to get him to change his bronze sword for a steel one! :lol: 'Try this nice new steel sword, Hengis, to repel the Romans. But you won't be able to use a bit of sandstone to put an edge on it. No, sure, OK suit yerself' .....

Bronze is much more difficult to sharpen then steel and doesn't keep an edge. Sandstone is good for sharpening steel swords - what else do you imagine they used?

By that logic, Japanese chisels are useless if one doesn't own waterstones.

Yes there is some truth in this.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

BB will be along with the popcorn shortly.

 

[Graham Orm]

So anyway, does it?

 

[bugbear]

So anyway, does it?

I gave a careful answer to your actual question on page 1.

I suppose it got lost amongst the cut 'n' paste hobby horses.

BugBear

 

[Cheshirechappie]

So anyway, does it?

Whether one steel is 'better' than another is rather subjective. However, given exactly the same sharpening equipment, tools made of some steels do give sharper edges than the same tools made of some other steels. So the short answer is 'yes'.

 

[woodbrains]

Bronze is much more difficult to sharpen then steel and doesn't keep an edge.

Hello,

This is exactly what Hengis said! But still he didn't recognise the superior steel with its longer edge holding properties, just kept on with the same old same old. Jacob, I'd ask if you were one of Hengis' decendants, but I guess some Roman steel ended his lineage back in the Bronze Age. :shock:

Japanese steel is 'better' and does take a finer edge, so yes, better steel can be 'sharper'. Necessary or not is another debate, but in my workshop it is.

Mike.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Does better steel get sharper? Better steel for a bean can probably doesn't.

 

[Graham Orm]

So anyway, does it?

Whether one steel is 'better' than another is rather subjective. However, given exactly the same sharpening equipment, tools made of some steels do give sharper edges than the same tools made of some other steels. So the short answer is 'yes'.

Thank you CC, I'd surmised that on the first page of the thread ;-). I was being sarchastic about the meanderings that the thread has taken, quite often missing the point.

 

[Jacob]

Bronze is much more difficult to sharpen then steel and doesn't keep an edge.

Hello,

This is exactly what Hengis said! But still he didn't recognise the superior steel with its longer edge holding properties, just kept on with the same old same old. Jacob, I'd ask if you were one of Hengis' decendants, but I guess some Roman steel ended his lineage back in the Bronze Age. :shock:

Mike I don't have any bronze tools - what are you burbling on about?

Japanese steel is 'better' and does take a finer edge, so yes, better steel can be 'sharper'. .....

Sounds a bit circular to me! Surely "better" steel means steel which can be made sharper (in the context of tools) by definition. There isn't "better" steel which can not be sharpened because this would make it "worse" steel.

 

[Corneel]

It wouldn't surprise me if Stanley used a chrome vanadium steel for its fatmax chisels. These form large and rock hard carbides, which prevent the formation of an ultimate edge, make sharpening more difficult and reduce the toughness of the steel. Add to that the indifference of the underpaid workers in some far away country and you probably take your chances with the hardening and tempering proces too.

To compensate for the reduced toughness of the type of steel they temper to a lower hardness level, 56 HRc or so, kind of negating the virtues of the carbides.

At least, that is how my carpentry Bahco chisels seem to be, they love to chip and are a bear to grind.

And meanderings of threads are a wonderfull thing and should be encouraged at all times!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

So anyway, does it?

Whether one steel is 'better' than another is rather subjective. However, given exactly the same sharpening equipment, tools made of some steels do give sharper edges than the same tools made of some other steels. So the short answer is 'yes'.

Thank you CC, I'd surmised that on the first page of the thread ;-). I was being sarchastic about the meanderings that the thread has taken, quite often missing the point.

Well, in one sense, it did open a discussion about toolsteels and their differences, and the result was for the most part thoughtful, informative and interesting, with fewer than usual silly or snarky posts. I rather agree with Corneel, though - sometimes meandering threads can reveal useful woodworking insights. It was a worthwhile question, given the ensuing discussion, so thanks for asking it Graham!

 

[woodbrains]

Mike I don't have any bronze tools - what are you burbling on about?

Japanese steel is 'better' and does take a finer edge, so yes, better steel can be 'sharper'. .....

Sounds a bit circular to me! Surely "better" steel means steel which can be made sharper (in the context of tools) by definition. There isn't "better" steel which can not be sharpened because this would make it "worse" steel.

Hello,

I'm not suggesting anyone does have bronze tools, I'm using a metaphor for people who disparage development, without any evidence for doing so, because they refuse to try it, or take the opinions of those who have.

The Stanley 5001 chisels are good tools, but there is compromise in the steel, which to some extent exists in all tools. It just depends which element of the tool is more important to the user. The 5001's have a fair bit of chrome in it, which gives the steel a certain amount of toughness for its hardness. But chrome reduces the level of sharpness a bit; the wire edge is clingy and does not break away as cleanly as a purer carbon steel. A plain carbon steel, for equivalent hardness, will be sharper, but will not quite have the toughness. Both these steels are relatively easy to sharpen with oilstones, say. Neither are terribly abrasion resistant. A2 is more abrasion resistant, but has an even more tenacious wire edge so needs a bit more care to get a sharp edge. Not difficult, just a bit different, if the user understands what is going on. Water stones help with this. A2 is a little less tough, hence higher honing angles. It is a trade off. I find Hock A2 cryo has a better sharpenability in this regard. Metallurgists and metalographers try to develop steels that have the best balance of all the characteristics. So far PM V11 is ticking more of the boxes than other steels I've used, but still is a compromise. I'm finding it to be no more difficult to sharpen as A2 but releases its wire edge super cleanly; it gets sharper. It is more abrasion resistant than steels I've used before and seems not to have a fragile edge, so can be sharpened with lowest honing angles. I've not tried a chisel, so can't tell definitively about toughness, but the edge of a plane iron shows little signs of break down of the edge as plain A2 sometimes does, so I suspect toughness is improved, too. In short, it sharpens as well as plain carbon steel without too much more effort, it can be made truly sharp, it has prodigious wear resistance and looks like it is tough. Logically it must be tough, it is hard too and the edge does not break, so must be tough. Better steel?

Mike.

 

[bugbear]

I think harder is generally deemed better.

For example, an experienced woodworker said this a while back:

If I wanted 2nd hand better than Marples (the old blue handled ones) I'd look for Stanley 5001s which were top of the range back then. Identical shape but black handle and harder steel.

:wink:

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

I think harder is generally deemed better.

For example, an experienced woodworker said this a while back:

If I wanted 2nd hand better than Marples (the old blue handled ones) I'd look for Stanley 5001s which were top of the range back then. Identical shape but black handle and harder steel.

:wink:

BugBear

You've been in my archive again! Well spotted BB keep up the good work.
You may have missed my slight change of opinion on this (see above somewhere). I think 5001s are too hard for some purposes - they are prone to chip and not suitable for "site work"; if you hit a bit of grit etc it may take out a bigger chip from the edge as compared to a softer chisel. But then 5001s will take and hold a finer edge e.g. honed to 25º - it's horses for courses.
The trouble with our OPs question (Does better steel get sharper?) is that it is meaningless unless you can define "better" steel in a way which doesn't take into account sharpening, which for an edge tool would also be meaningless. It's circular.