Does better steel get sharper?

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I'm still not sure why those who have not used the steel are finding something negative to say about it, even inventing arguments such as why it is calls what it is. I've use the stuff in a Record 07 plane and it is remarkable how it holds an edge. If this is of no interest, then fine, but arguing hat it doesn't do anything remarkable when it has not been experienced is plain silly. I have no affiliation to Veritas whatsoever, I am fairly gimmick averse, though I do like high quality kit. I have spent a good long while working with ordinary tools, though tuned up to perform. I have a liking for earlyish Record planes, which have been my mainstay for decades. So believe me or not, the PM V 11 is different. Could I get by without it, absolutely and aside from the plane iron I have, probably will. But make no bones, with ornery abrasive timbers, it is worth having one iron in your kit. Modern woodworkers have to put up with all kinds of stuff the period craftsmen did not. Plywood, MDF, laminates of various kinds, exotic woods, even kiln dried timber is not as friendly as old air dried stuff. If we never work anything beyond mild, home grown timbers (Aussie nationals excepted) then it doesn't matter too much, but I do work that I don't like, such as planing edges of MDF and plywood. Suppose I should get D2 irons for that, but they are not nice for regular work. PM V11 is good for anything I throw at it and does my preferred fine work too. Jacob mentions the old laminated Stanley and Record irons as being the best he has. I don't disagree that they are very good, they were made in a time when tools were very good quality. They don't make them any more because of cost, and I'll bet if they were to be made now, they would cost as much as these PM V11 irons, or more. And they are not as good, IMO. Guess what, we are actually advancing and improving, if people would be a bit more positive and embrace the developments, we might actually enjoy ourselves more and be more productive. I'm having fun, though, and even the naysayers won't put a dampener on it, because my eyes are open. When I got my first Veritas plane, I could not believe how much better it was than what I had had before. So now I never doubt that modern tools and equipment are improvements, until I try them, or take a trusted opinion. Whether they are needed is down to the individual, but make no bones, LV, LN, et al, tools are vastly superior to their heirs, they just are.

Mike.

 

[Corneel]

Personally I am very curious to what PMV-11 actually is. I also bought a blade out of curiosity, and so far it certainly doesn't disappoint. It is very hard to make an objective comparison, because every bit of wood is different and I am also not a machine. So any comparison is going to be highly subjective. Nothing wrong with being subjective of course, but subjective is never going to be objective. Or so to speak.

In the mean time I am plenty happy with my old planes. Maybe largely because I am hopelessly romantic, and these new ones just don't speak to me like a 125 year old Stanley does. And I like lighter planes better then heavy ones, which also makes me enjoy the oldies better.

There is probably something Calvinistic too: Thou shall not enjoy new and shiny planes!

 

[JimB]

I think the problem lies in modern-day advertising. There is so much out there being promoted as the answer to a woodworker's dreams that any real advances tend to get lost in the noise (or buried in the shavings).

 

[Trafalgar]

Honing breaks sort of suit me. They give me time to think before I do something stupid, this doesn't always work but I'm glad for the break anyway.

 

[Jacob]

Honing breaks sort of suit me. They give me time to think before I do something stupid, this doesn't always work but I'm glad for the break anyway.

Ditto sharpening pencils.
Parallel worlds. You can buy all manner of mechanical pencils with loose leads in different diameters and hardnesses, some with a sharpener and a rubber built in. Such an advance the those silly wooden things! But somehow the old ones are much easier to work with.
There's a tiny level of skill required to sharpen a wooden pencil with a knife or a chisel but it's a skill well worth acquiring - it's quicker and you don't have to invest in a lot of kit and stupid gadgets.
And they are infinitely more useful than Sketchup.

 

[bugbear]

I think the problem lies in modern-day advertising. There is so much out there being promoted as the answer to a woodworker's dreams that any real advances tend to get lost in the noise (or buried in the shavings).

I don't think it's advertising; the problem is that, at any point in time, there are many innovations, and it's not always easy to tell which are the good ones, the ones which will last.

I am reminded of this most saturday mornings, when a radio 2 show plays most of the music from the 1950's and 60's.

In hindsight, we tend to think it was a golden age, with nothing but great music.

This programs shows you the dross as well.

BugBear (who hears it in his round of the town charity shops, bargain hunting)

 

[Jacob]

I think the problem lies in modern-day advertising. There is so much out there being promoted as the answer to a woodworker's dreams that any real advances tend to get lost in the noise (or buried in the shavings).

What advances?
Most of what is talked about is retro styling - going back to thick blades, poor quality adjusters, giving meaningless steam-punk names to bits of steel (PMT-999) whatever it's called.
I can't say I'm aware of any advances over my collection of very old tools - quite the opposite - increasing cosmetics but a serious decline in quality - the steel they use on LN LV plane bodies is soft and inferior to the normal cast iron of a generation ago.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yes, Sounds of the Sixties. It just reminds you how dire much of it was.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

Knowing way more than a bit about powder metallurgy, I have purchased a chisel and a block plane blade made from PMV-11 and find it easily delivers for the types of wood I work (cherry, walnut, white oak, and similar species). I found little time difference in achieving an edge with either my oilstones or SpdyderCo ceramics, after determining the correct bevel angle (around 25 degrees). The edges held up better than A2 (which I hate-O1 or W1 are my favorites).

Why my interest in PMV-11? To begin with, I own a powder metal parts manufacturing business and I was curious as to how the material would hold up. It is made differently than traditional powder metal (which would describe my plant) and characterizing the material as powder metal does not do it justice as the processing of the metal composite is what gives the material its uniqueness. In using the edge tools I have, I have paid close attention to see if it would show the negatives of using a traditional powder metal manufacturing method, and the PMV-11 did not exhibit any of those negatives.

I'm not sure of Rob Lee's future plans for this material, but I see uses for it far beyond the tiny hand tool market, perhaps it will be used in a larger segment of the Lee Valley business, or perhaps it is the first iteration of an evolving material. I don't know. I will say it is my belief that how it was done is certainly patentable for content and process (I hold a patent on a powder metal material where we have achieved electrical conductivity approaching 30% above traditional wrought materials, for process and material composition).

 

[Corneel]

LV is on the application side of the material, not the development side. I guess the steel manufacturer certainly has patented this stuff. I am not sure if you can patent an application of an already patented material in this case. When you choose a knife steel and use it for plane blades and chisels, would that be patentable?

When you dig around a bit you find all kinds of wonderfull new steels. They have entire lines dedicated to knife steels for example these ones: http://sb-specialty-metals.com/products/knifesteels

LV makes it clear in their published articles that they didn't invent the steel themselves, they just investigated likely candidates.

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

LV is on the application side of the material, not the development side. I guess the steel manufacturer certainly has patented this stuff. I am not sure if you can patent an application of an already patented material in this case. When you choose a knife steel and use it for plane blades and chisels, would that be patentable?

When you dig around a bit you find all kinds of wonderfull new steels. They have entire lines dedicated to knife steels for example these ones: http://sb-specialty-metals.com/products/knifesteels

LV makes it clear in their published articles that they didn't invent the steel themselves, they just investigated likely candidates.

LV is on the application side of the material, but also could control the development, as I did. Within the PM industry, there are only a handful of raw material suppliers, and end users having an active role in development is not at all uncommon, as is the patenting of the end result. In my case, it was not a new steel, but a method of using a carrier material to permit an additive to remain within the final part. The carrier material liquifies and "burns out" of the end product, leaving the desired material within. All materials are commonly available, but the process and mixture was new. Incidentally, the use of it is for a really exotic product: solenoids and stators for electric motors.

I have no knowledge if LV did or did not patent the material or process, but does demonstrate a measurable incremental improvement over other steels. How it is accepted is up to the marketing department as well as the buying public!

 

[Corneel]

LV did not apply for a patent on this product.

BTW, pretty interesting stuff you are working on!

 

[Tony Zaffuto]

The interesting part lasted for about five minutes! Then it's just work.

Application is also pretty boring: shell/case for solenoids as I said, but the higher conductivity makes for a more energy efficient product for our customer. For electric motors, it is cost savings for the motor builders, as our material will permit a single stator instead of a stack of stamped stators, without any degradation of performance.

 

[bugbear]

LV is on the application side of the material, not the development side. I guess the steel manufacturer certainly has patented this stuff. I am not sure if you can patent an application of an already patented material in this case

In general, it is certainly possible to patent the novel and unobvious application of an existing patent to a new art.

BugBear

 

[JimB]

I don't think it's advertising; the problem is that, at any point in time, there are many innovations, and it's not always easy to tell which are the good ones, the ones which will last.

I am reminded of this most saturday mornings, when a radio 2 show plays most of the music from the 1950's and 60's.

In hindsight, we tend to think it was a golden age, with nothing but great music.

This programs shows you the dross as well.)

I always found tool selection to be easy back then - you stuck to Stanley or Record for planes and as for other stuff, we were told made in England is good, British made probably isn't and Empire made is crap.
My mother complained about the music being vacuous but I pointed out that she grew up with such lyrics as, 'when my sugar walks down the street, all the little birdies go tweet, tweet tweet'. :roll: