DBT85s Workshop - Moved in and now time to fit it out

[DBT85]

A pair of 6x2s nailed together should be fine for the lintel, assuming the opening is of the order of 1500 or so. If you have that and studs up to the underside of the gable rafters (from the plate) then you're fine. That photo you show of mine is before any of that is in place, but later on in the build you'll see studs filling in the gable.

I saw studs filling the gable but not the expected large post right up under the ridge.

Door is around 1500 yes, I'll draw something up.

So 4x6 over the door onto the cripples and then normal studs all the way upto the rafters from the top plate /lintel.

Does one specifically have to go directly under the ridge?

 

[MikeG.]

No, it doesn't, but you might find it useful to have one there as mirroring the triangular boards at the gable works quite well.

 

[DBT85]

Groundworks have begun! Sort of.

It's thick solid clay at the bottom but I've still roots coming up. That's 225mm down.

Upset has been caused today by informing mother in law that the 2 birches are coming down. The larger of the two will only be 300mm from the wall of the shop and the smaller is maybe 1.5m away.

 

[MikeG.]

.....Internal area will be 29.89m2........

Excellent.

A friendly building inspector checking work on my house looked over at the workshop and said something like "Don't tell me, let me guess....that's 29.5 sq m internally". "Don't be daft, Owen, you know me better than that. It's 29.95 sq m internally" :lol: ........

-

Your concrete, in perfect ground, would need only be 150 thick. If you go up to 200 or 225 thick, with mesh top and bottom, you'll be fine never minding the less than perfect ground......providing you are down to the same strata (ie clay) everywhere. Is your site flat?

For spacing the rebar, little plastic thingies, sometimes called chairs, I think, provide the support. You can get multi-level ones where there is more than one layer of mesh/ bars. They fill up with concrete and have no effect on the strength of the slab. Ask you builders merchant.

If you need to dig 225, and the concrete you want to pour is 225 thick, then 50mm of hardcore would be the cheapest way of getting the slab up 50mm above ground level, which is where you want it. Either that, or lower the ground level in the vicinity by 50mm.

 

[DBT85]

It's not perfectly flat but I don't think its too far off, that hole was dug less than a metre from a plum tree and maybe 1.5m from a privet. I'll do more holes tomorrow and hope the kid doesn't drop down one :lol: . Actually been waiting for it to get dark to use my little laser to get levels in all four corners.

Current plan and expectation is 100mm type1, 30mm sand, 200mm concrete. Given that I have 1x Pershore Plum and 2x birch (all 3 coming down), privet in the immediate vicinity as well as a bloody great Ash maybe 7m away, I don't mind putting in more type 1. Also, I'm not 100% sure so I'd rather have too much.

I've updated this to have the header and gable studs. My questions are thus. Usually the header would sit on the jack stud and not on the king stud. In this layout does it matter? Can both just go to the underside of the header with the top plate on top? I basically couldn't be arsed changing it right now in the drawing as it would bugger other things up that I'm too tired to fix.

The gap betwixt the 2 gable studs is also 100mm wider than the usual 610mm on centre spacing. I'll probably put one in there anyway as you say just to make life easier for the boarding. I also now realise that removing the tie on the first and last rafters is needed in order to get the stud from the plate to the rafter without cutting a chuffing great notch in it.

Got a quote from accumix volumetric today, £950 for 7m3 gen3 or a whopping £966 for C25. For the sake of £16 I might just go with the C25.

 

[MikeG.]

Header? HEADER!!

Carruthers. Prepare the flogging tree. And fetch the biggest whip.

 

[DBT85]

I swear I didn;t do it on purpose. Bloody youtube.

I even called the component "Lintel" in Fusion!

Another question to go on top of those above.

Were your featheredge 175mm or 200mm? Davies timber do 175x28x8 in 4.8m lengths at a reasonable price (from what I can tell), and at that length I'd only have one join in the middle of each long side (which I'd stagger before you ask!) I feel on a larger building having smaller 150mm cladding would look odd.

 

[MikeG.]

Yes, I always specify (and use) 175mm feather-edge. The narrower stuff is also thinner, and splits too easily.

Your stud terminology is also American. We have studs (full length, plate-to-plate), and cripple studs (shorter, supporting lintels). You should use them that way, too, with a cripple and a full stud each side of each opening. The problem with having 2 cripple studs under the lintel with no full length one is that there is a rotational force on the door jamb when the door is open, so you could have some flexing there. It's all much more solid done the normal way.

Leaving the gable truss tie out is sensible, as you say, and you can always just plant it back on the inside of the wall to support your loft storage arrangements.

Your stud arrangement in the end wall might be something you play with a bit. You don't have to have them, say, 600 apart and then one only 100 apart. You can just split the gap and space them evenly, if it suits.

You're showing your long side wall as one panel. You won't be able to lift that, so you'll need to divide it at least into 2, and that means an extra stud at each join. You also wouldn't be able to build it on your slab, because the plinth walls will be in the way.

 

[DBT85]

Thanks Mike,

I had already worked out about the long wall, fear not. It was only drawn up like for the sake of parametric fun. I shall do it in 2 sections accounting for the osb size once I know what it is to make life easy.

I got outside at 11pm in the rain last night (because I was on here drawing things!) and got laser levels on all 4 corners from a fixed central point. The lowest mark was 35mm above the ground while the highest was 160. So a 125mm height difference over 5m. The other end was around 90-130mm above ground level so a fall of about 55mm over 7m and 95mm over the diagonal 8.7m. The area tilts ever so slightly toward where I take my pictures from.

I'm wondering about the roof ventilation and the verge detail you mentioned in SheptonPhils thread.

In this design the rafters meet the top of the ridge so air can't get from one side to the other. Is that not an issue? Or is it not an issue for natural slate because of the air gaps? I think Cembrit say their fibre cement tiles have less gap as they are more uniform, so maybe it something I need to think about. I know Steve used some black stench pipe to make his own ridge profile as the ridge tiles are not nearly as cost effective as the flat ones!

With regard to the verge detail, I assume that only works in your case because you have a line of slates under the membrane on the verge upto which you can clad? You originally mentioned using a 3:1 mortar between that set of slate and the slate that would sit atop the batten, but it looks like you ended up just using a barge board up against that and then the main slates going and overhanging it?

Is all breather membrane pretty much the same? The same can be used on the roof and the walls?

Looking at my spreadsheet, we're already looking at just over £5k just to get the building up and clad and that's just materials. The groundworks and any hire costs are not borne by myself so I don't have to worry about those at least.

 

[MikeG.]

Don't worry about ventilation above the breather membrane. There's enough of it through any non-sheet -type roofing material.

Verge detail in mortar with slate was a mistake I originally made, but corrected. It doesn't work properly as there isn't enough grip for the mortar. Just overhang your slates and bring either your boards hard up to the underside, or put a barge board on. I planted a 2x2 on the outside of the gable frame and brought my battens and FE boards up to that, then planted a 4x1 barge board over that. This helped support the slate overhang nicely.

The fall in the ground levels isn't enough to make any great difference to your slab. You shouldn't have too much trouble getting down to clay all round. Just make sure that the concrete finishes 50mm above ground at the highest point, and the rest will take care of itself.

 

[RobinBHM]

DB85 wrote:

we're already looking at just over £5k just to get the building up and clad and that's just materials

It soon adds up -but lets be honest £5k for a 30sqM* building to that spec is pretty amazing.

there is something immensely satisfying in building a timber frame outbuilding from scratch -I built a shed and combined cabin (which is where Im typing from now), and its made a huge difference to the house and garden.


*technically 29.99995M2

 

[DBT85]

what about below the membrane but above the insulation , Mike?

I've just dug more inspection holes and apart from a good inch thick root (guessing from the Ash tree) the ground is very firm clay. It's not wholly pure as there are tiny fragments of brick, but this house is about 200 years old and half a mile across the field behind us was a brick pit that this house and others were made from. So it's likely the garden area was a storage area long ago.

There were other small roots but from trees that will soon be departed.

I'll be sure to make sure the hole dug puts my slab top 50mm above ground. I don't mind removing some topsoil in the high points if needed after the fact. It would be in the 2m section around the side and back, not on the side you'd see regularly.

Regarding the slab, is the order of operations hole, shuttering, hardcore, sand, cement. Or hole, hardcore, sand, shuttering, cement?

Honestly I'll be glad when the concrete is done, it's the only bit I'm remotely worried about and it's a good £2k of the budget considering the concrete, the mesh, the hardcore and sand.

Father in law (farmer) will drive the dumper while wife and I and maybe a mate rake, poke and tamp.

 

[DBT85]

DB85 wrote:

we're already looking at just over £5k just to get the building up and clad and that's just materials

It soon adds up -but lets be honest £5k for a 30sqM* building to that spec is pretty amazing.

there is something immensely satisfying in building a timber frame outbuilding from scratch -I built a shed and combined cabin (which is where Im typing from now), and its made a huge difference to the house and garden.


*technically 29.99995M2

Oh it absolutely is. We're going to get 2 rooms back of the house that currently house all my tools and DIY sundries as well as having more room to work.

But that £5k doesn't include the ground work, hire costs, all the pir insulation which I shall be supplied with gratis, nor the electrics, lights, paint etc.

One of the things I tried to find out from other builds was the costs involved but it's quite difficult to get that info.

 

[mindthatwhatouch]

Hi,
Good luck with the slab, must be nice to get going with the construction after the planning.

Re roof tiles.
I used Decra (see My build
Unsure about metro tile but all bending was done by hand. Hidden under the ridge so although it doesn’t look pretty perfectly serviceable and watertight. You could even match the length of the roof to a whole tile if you wanted. Easy to fit (though cutting and folding Bottom verges was a little fiddly) and lightweight.
Just don’t understand why this sort of product isn’t more widely used. Lost count of the number of people that have made good comments on appearance and that they thought it’s traditional tiling.
Watching with interest.

 

[DBT85]

My only unusual test hole. A very thick (a good 3cm) dead worm. I know it's a worm because it absolutely is not a root from the Ash tree 6m away.

My father in law can't understand why I need 200mm of concrete with mesh top and bottom as he's been driving all over 4" slabs for 50 years on the same ground with giant tractors and trailers.

Hi,
Good luck with the slab, must be nice to get going with the construction after the planning.

Re roof tiles.
I used Decra (see My build
Unsure about metro tile but all bending was done by hand. Hidden under the ridge so although it doesn’t look pretty perfectly serviceable and watertight. You could even match the length of the roof to a whole tile if you wanted. Easy to fit (though cutting and folding Bottom verges was a little fiddly) and lightweight.
Just don’t understand why this sort of product isn’t more widely used. Lost count of the number of people that have made good comments on appearance and that they thought it’s traditional tiling.
Watching with interest.

Thanks, it really will be. I've been hovering around workshop build threads for about 4 years :shock: Once the slab is done I'll be happy. Nothing else scares me about it all.

Regarding the roof. I've ummd and ahhd from Onduline to Decra to Metrotile to shingles to fibre cement tiles. The simple fact is that the fibre cement tiles will work out about half the price of the Metrotile or Decra and still look better than Onduline and things.

 

[MikeG.]

.........My father in law can't understand why I need 200mm of concrete with mesh top and bottom as he's been driving all over 4" slabs for 50 years on the same ground with giant tractors and trailers.............

Where the odd crack didn't matter, nor the odd plant pushing through the cracks. Nor whether or not the concrete stayed level.

 

[DBT85]

Thought on these bits chaps?

what about airflow below the membrane but above the insulation , Mike? It doesn;t matter that there is no link between either side of the ridge?

Regarding the slab, is the order of operations hole, shuttering, hardcore, sand, concrete. Or hole, hardcore, sand, shuttering, concrete?

Where the odd crack didn't matter, nor the odd plant pushing through the cracks. Nor whether or not the concrete stayed level.

I know I know.

My hole digger has been in touch, he can do next week :shock: so I might finally actually start.

SE Davis, an aggregate company we've used before, quoted £44 inc vat and delivery for bags of type1 and sharp sand, delivery in 10 days or so. About £6 better than I saw in most places. It all adds up!

Tried calling Davis Timber to see if a) they'll waive the £30 delivery charge on a £2400 order and b) if it can be a less than £2400 order given the quantity I'm ordering. Unable to get through to anyone.

 

[MikeG.]

Thought on these bits chaps?

what about airflow below the membrane but above the insulation , Mike? It doesn;t matter that there is no link between either side of the ridge?

No, that's more about the correct drape of the membrane than airflow.

Regarding the slab, is the order of operations hole, shuttering, hardcore, sand, concrete. Or hole, hardcore, sand, shuttering, concrete?

It doesn't matter. If your shuttering isn't the same depth as your concrete, then you need to work around that, as whatever happens, the concrete comes to the top of the shuttering. So if you have, say, 225 boards and you want 200 of concrete, you'll need to get your boards in the ground prior to hardcore.

 

[Sheptonphil]

My hole digger has been in touch, he can do next week :shock: so I might finally actually start.
.

Now it gets real.

Once the hole is dug, things really start to get exciting, no turning back once the first hit of cash has been made. I’m already looking at a £2000 overspend against budget due to the materials planning insisted on, especially the Hardie cladding which has come in at £2100 instead of £900 for timber. :shock:

Looking forward to following your adventure with this.

 

[DBT85]

My hole digger has been in touch, he can do next week :shock: so I might finally actually start.
.

Now it gets real.

Once the hole is dug, things really start to get exciting, no turning back once the first hit of cash has been made. I’m already looking at a £2000 overspend against budget due to the materials planning insisted on, especially the Hardie cladding which has come in at £2100 instead of £900 for timber. :shock:

Looking forward to following your adventure with this.

Oh yeah Its been in my head for years to do it and with all this time off I have the opportunity to knock it out and get it done rather than it taking months.

I've always expected mine would run beyond the £5k I wanted to have to get it started. As I said earlier, I don't even have to pay for a lot of the stuff others will, so it could be much more.

I even have a little camera to hopefully record a time lapse of it all happening. We shall see how that goes.

Still can't make my mind up about windows in the long side.