Coronavirus

[rafezetter]

I was there to try to find toilet tissues as we have run out. I just gave up, got some croissants and went home for a cuppa.

Al

Appalled of Crowthorne.

Just read this - I'm not sure croissants will get the job done, and if any of you do happen to visit and get offered a "pain au chocolat" might be a good idea to pass.

On a more serious note I had to tell a group of four young indian people all in thier 20's, 3 ladies and a guy to MOVE AWAY from the door, they had been standing there the entire time of my shop - (for two people) - at least 15 - 20 minutes with I presume dozens of people coming in and out. No masks, all chatting animatedly, as they do - (which expells more air and whatever's in thier lungs).

The guy was like "yeah yeah" to which I said "no, not yeah yeah - there are signs everywhere about keeping at least 2 meters from other people and you're standing RIGHT BY THE DOOR, FORCING people to walk past you, in and out."

he said it was cold outside - I said I don't care you've got coats you won't freeze to death, now MOVE.

They moved.

Getting tired of these idiots.

 

[Trevanion]

This is not simply a racist rant but I have thought about this for the past 12 months or so.

Ah, so it's just a racist personality?

 

[Trainee neophyte]

This is not simply a racist rant but I have thought about this for the past 12 months or so.

Ah, so it's just a racist personality?

I don't think it's racist, because "Chinese" covers quite a few different ethnic groups, even if the majority are Han. More nationalist, or perhaps anti-foreigner if you were looking for negativity, but actually anti-globalist. Definitely a good idea to avoid globalism, which has shipped all the manufacturing to the east along with the slave labour and pollution. We smugly import all the stuff that used to be made in the west, except it is now much cheaper from china, because we don't pay for the labour, pensions, healthcare, environmental damage etc that would be necessary in a real, western economy. The fact that Bangladeshis get their factories collapsing on them allows for cheaper t-shirts, so that must be good for us. Who cares about Bangladeshis...?

The upside of globalism is that we can buy really cheap stuff. The downside is that no one in the west has a job of any value, which is about to be shown up by the mother of all recessions. Everyone currently working from home should consider their position - if you are capable of working from home, what are you actually doing, and does the world really care? Will the world notice if you didn't work at all? The middle class is about to be ram-raided.

 

[rafezetter]

Why have UK journalists...

There's so much wrong with that it's difficult to know where to start.

China is a populous nation with plentiful (and cheap) manufacturing resource. The only way to replicate those low costs here would be a bonfire of worker's rights and protections - not something that's likely to be all that welcome (or indeed, good for those workers).

Whatever your position on the morality of the conditions of Chinese factory workers, the idea that they are a parasitic nation doesn't make sense; they have businesses that supply products at a price the world is willing to pay. Nothing parasitic about that.

At the risk of setting you off Sploo - Beech isn't entirely wrong.

The Chinese manufacturing system became the defacto system NOT JUST because they did it cheaper, but because companies worldwide started using them instead of companies in their home countries in large part (the majority I would say) to make bigger PROFITS - it sure as dung wasn't made "better".

What's that new amazon alike website from china? Every single review I've seen of things bought from it show the items are less than worthless.

Part of it started when "made in Taiwan" became the defacto mark of quality for electronics and such - but apart from a few western companies like HP - instead of trying to ensure and protect jobs in their own countries, they flocked ( edit: I wrote f l o c k e d) to buy these items at the obvious cost to thier fellow countrymen.

If all these companies had mostly ignored the chinese manufacturing base, BECAUSE of thier apalling workers and human rights abuses, the chinese system would have remained largely inside china and Asia as a whole. India and many of the poorer nations would have bought from them, but the majority of the 1st world countries DID NOT NEED WHAT CHINA WAS OFFERING.

They (we) had all been largely self sufficient for 100+ years and more.

And only now that China has closed it's doors saying "pinapple you we will keep this stuff for ourselves" only NOW is the rest of the world realising just how much self reliance they have given up.

If western countries don't start rebuilding some of our industries, there will come a time (I think) when China will be holding the reins to, and have almost complete control over - most western societies.

China already holds 16% of all foreign based debt of the USA. SIXTEEN PERCENT. That's not even close to trivial.

And as it gets even more wealthy, so they will be able to buy more debt.

I would consider this situation with a lockdown on exports out of China a warning shot across the bow of things to come for western civilisation.

Western govt's and companies helped to create this situation all in the name of profits to themselves, and at the cost of thier societies people - but what happens if China again decides to turn off the tap?

People haven't noticed yet that buying cheap is a noose around thier own necks, but they will.

 

[sploo]

The Chinese manufacturing system became the defacto system NOT JUST because they did it cheaper, but because companies worldwide started using them instead of companies in their home countries in large part (the majority I would say) to make bigger PROFITS - it sure as dung wasn't made "better".

OK... but how do you make bigger profits? Cut your costs. I.e. buy it cheaper => it is almost totally because it's cheaper.

What's that new amazon alike website from china? Every single review I've seen of things bought from it show the items are less than worthless.

AliExpress? Banggood?

Daft thing is; they often list the products you can get delivered direct from China for a cheaper price than the markup on the same item you'd pay from a local company - usually with a longer delivery time, admittedly.

If western countries don't start rebuilding some of our industries, there will come a time (I think) when China will be holding the reins to, and have almost complete control over - most western societies.

China already holds 16% of all foreign based debt of the USA. SIXTEEN PERCENT. That's not even close to trivial.

And as it gets even more wealthy, so they will be able to buy more debt.

Not sure I'd go to quite that level; but it's certainly valid to consider China's rise to mean that other nations are now more dependant on its goods (vs back when it was maybe just seen as a cheap source of supplies).

 

[Trainee neophyte]

........- some see the death toll as largely related to those who would anyway have soon died.........

A quarter of 16 to 49 year olds admitted to intensive care with Covid 19 have died. The average age of admittance to Intensive Care units is 60, and half those admitted die. The facts simply to not support the opinion that these people would have died soon anyway.

Source.

Here is the up-to-date Italian data (in English), and the results are completely different: https://www.epicentro.iss.it/coronaviru ... zo_eng.pdf

Mean age of patients dying for COVID-2019 infection was 78 (median 79, range 26-100, IQR 73 -85). Women were 3,088 (30.8%). Figure 1 shows that median age of patients dying for COVID-2019 infection was more than 15 years higher as compared with the national sample diagnosed with COVID-2019 infection (median age 62 years). Figure 2 shows the absolute number of deaths by age group. Women dying for COVID-2019 infection had an older age than men (median age women 82 - median age men 78).

I'm not disputing the UK data, just curious as to why every country has completely different outcomes. Germany has a gazillion cases, but no one dies, in Spain 10% die, I think - every country has different data. I wonder what this means.

 

[beech1948]

Ah the liberals reply. How quaint. Behind my current annoyance is some 35 yrs of doing business with the Chinese, most of Asia and the so called West.

Try doing business with a country which does not recognise my right to own my product through patents or copyright. A country which feels it can just copy and use my software for local companies. Yeah been there and tried that. Oddly the only country with the same approach as the West is Japan. Where what they sign up to is what they deliver. You just need to comprehend the rules of the game and the consequences of the desired outcome. China not so much.

China a parasite.....time to look at the facts.

China caused C19 to exist through poor animal welfare and negligence..true
China allowed many chinese to visit with the rest of the world after that for 3 months
China has tried to suppress the knowledge of the existence of C19
China continues to lie and obfuscate to throw the blame elsewhere
Chinas only interest is to prevent China becoming a hated state
China has lied about the size and volume of C19 dead
China yesterday issued a PR notice that Britain had failed its responsibilities through inaction
China has blamed a military US delegation in October for introducing the C19 to China
China has leveraged its manufacturing cost advantages to deskill the West.
China has used the C19 vacuum of attention to seize South China sea gas supplies

So fine you guys who have replied laugh your heads off and try to put down the facts BUT....it will come to pass that the UK Government will be faced with doing business with China on Chinese terms in the near future. I'd like to think they would not but I do know how politicos are so have no expectations.

The low cost argument is now a moot point. Chinese wages had risen quite high, goods are still cheapish but the gap is closing. Chinese manufacture is not all hightech and much that they make could be made here. After all the transport costs alone add significantly to their cost base. A few UK universities have explored this and tried to encourage UK manufacturing to pick up the ability to compete with high tech manufacturing systems but to no avail.

My electronics are made in Poland and Portugal. My critical electronic stuff is made in Stevenage. Cases are from Malaysia. When I have asked about complete UK manufacture the numbers returned have been only 13% more than Poland or Portugal inc transport. I have come to believe that high tech manufacturing would close that gap but who will make the investment needed to get it started. Not a Brit.

 

[FatmanG]

Why have UK journalists not been following up properly re the C19 virus. Stupid and unquestioning and lacking any investigative prowess the Uk journo's need to be sacked and replaced.

See here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ3VOA76qQ

See here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU00nSQoJjU

I am coming round to believe that the UK should seek reparations from China for this Chinese cock-up and lies.

The UK needs an immediate Industrial Strategy to begin to replace the Chinese manufactureing which we have allowed to develop but which makes us weaker. We should stop buying Chinese stuff be it telecomms or even woodworking tools and build an indigenous industry and do it now.

China is essentially a parasitic nation taking from the rest of the world but delivering back the Corona Virus.

This is not simply a racist rant but I have thought about this for the past 12 months or so. I would say the same if China was replaced by the US or Russia.

The UK needs to respond to this as though it was a war and place the nation on a war footing to fight it.

Would you charge the bloke who killed the bat and caused this disease with war crimes ?

 

[rafezetter]

The Chinese manufacturing system became the defacto system NOT JUST because they did it cheaper, but because companies worldwide started using them instead of companies in their home countries in large part (the majority I would say) to make bigger PROFITS - it sure as dung wasn't made "better".

OK... but how do you make bigger profits? Cut your costs. I.e. buy it cheaper => it is almost totally because it's cheaper.

What's that new amazon alike website from china? Every single review I've seen of things bought from it show the items are less than worthless.

AliExpress? Banggood?

Daft thing is; they often list the products you can get delivered direct from China for a cheaper price than the markup on the same item you'd pay from a local company - usually with a longer delivery time, admittedly.

If western countries don't start rebuilding some of our industries, there will come a time (I think) when China will be holding the reins to, and have almost complete control over - most western societies.

China already holds 16% of all foreign based debt of the USA. SIXTEEN PERCENT. That's not even close to trivial.

And as it gets even more wealthy, so they will be able to buy more debt.

Not sure I'd go to quite that level; but it's certainly valid to consider China's rise to mean that other nations are now more dependant on its goods (vs back when it was maybe just seen as a cheap source of supplies).

Ok - I'm impressed, a non snide meaningful reply.

Not aliexpress or banggood something else quite recent - ...... Wish - it's called Wish - google reviews for Wish products.

As far as profits are concerned - what was wrong with the profits they were making before? Why do you NEED £50 million if you were making £25 million? Pretty sure most of the major manufacturers in most western countries were doing ok - yes there were obvious downturns - but my limited knowledge thinks that the pursuit of "cheaper" led to the demise of most of the UK's shipping, steel and a bunch of other manufacturing mainstays, and the same for the USA.

Yes I get there will ALWAYS be people who undercut others, and those willing to chisel a little bit here and there off the quality to get it cheaper - but my question is - are we REALLY better off ?

Is the average person in western society REALLY that much better off because we can buy it cheaper than before?

I'm in the minortiy but I dont think we are - "cheaper" had led to the throwaway society we live in, creating more waste then in human history, and it's NOT just because there are more of us, go to any local refuse centre and just look at what's there - it's shocking if you actually allow yourself to think about it for just a moment, instead of maintaining the "fog of protective indifference" that 99.9% of people have been wearing for the last 40 years.

I've said it before - history (if we don't exterminate ourselves first) will look on this period of humanity (and assuming the chinese don't own the world) and the choices we made, very very poorly indeed.

it's just a shame I won't be around to say "I told you so".

 

[rafezetter]

Why have UK journalists not been following up properly re the C19 virus. Stupid and unquestioning and lacking any investigative prowess the Uk journo's need to be sacked and replaced.

See here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ3VOA76qQ

See here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU00nSQoJjU

I am coming round to believe that the UK should seek reparations from China for this Chinese cock-up and lies.

The UK needs an immediate Industrial Strategy to begin to replace the Chinese manufactureing which we have allowed to develop but which makes us weaker. We should stop buying Chinese stuff be it telecomms or even woodworking tools and build an indigenous industry and do it now.

China is essentially a parasitic nation taking from the rest of the world but delivering back the Corona Virus.

This is not simply a racist rant but I have thought about this for the past 12 months or so. I would say the same if China was replaced by the US or Russia.

The UK needs to respond to this as though it was a war and place the nation on a war footing to fight it.

Would you charge the bloke who killed the bat and caused this disease with war crimes ?

No don't be daft, but a charge could well be made against the Chinese Govt for it's usual supression regime of "you're telling lies" and how they treated the Doctor who wanted to alert the people.

it's not unreasonable to suggest it COULD have been contained in an "outbreak" situation by the Chinese - if they had reached out to other nations and the WHO when it was immediately found out this strain was new and vitally UNTREATABLE.

But they didn't, because the Chinese are the way they are.

And now thousands of non Chinese are dead.

What say you to that?

My fervent hope is that one of the after effects of this is that the WHO gets new powers and countries with poor records regarding outbreaks are forced to be more open or face charges of "intentional death" WHEN another one happens and it's deliberately suppressed.

Because it will be WHEN.

So far in the last 100 years we have got off lightly, the Ebola outbreak would have been a LOT worse if it had happened in China instead of Africa, if China's recent behaviour is anything to go by.

Even an outbreak in India would be preferable.

But China and N.Korea - with thier Govt run "information lockdown" societies - from just the pandemic aspect they have proven both are a serious risk to the rest of the world, WITHOUT thier nukes.

That's one of the biggest things that needs to change - this pandemic has proven a biological threat to life CANNOT be controlled by regimes of information oppression / suppression - and to try is an exercise in extreme futility.

LOL - a biological threat to life is like The Borg - it'll happen whether you acknowledge it's happening or not.

 

[FatmanG]

Why have UK journalists not been following up properly re the C19 virus. Stupid and unquestioning and lacking any investigative prowess the Uk journo's need to be sacked and replaced.

See here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ3VOA76qQ

See here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU00nSQoJjU

I am coming round to believe that the UK should seek reparations from China for this Chinese cock-up and lies.

The UK needs an immediate Industrial Strategy to begin to replace the Chinese manufactureing which we have allowed to develop but which makes us weaker. We should stop buying Chinese stuff be it telecomms or even woodworking tools and build an indigenous industry and do it now.

China is essentially a parasitic nation taking from the rest of the world but delivering back the Corona Virus.

This is not simply a racist rant but I have thought about this for the past 12 months or so. I would say the same if China was replaced by the US or Russia.

The UK needs to respond to this as though it was a war and place the nation on a war footing to fight it.

Would you charge the bloke who killed the bat and caused this disease with war crimes ?

No don't be daft, but a charge could well be made against the Chinese Govt for it's usual supression regime of "you're telling lies" and how they treated the Doctor who wanted to alert the people.

it's not unreasonable to suggest it COULD have been contained in an "outbreak" situation by the Chinese - if they had reached out to other nations and the WHO when it was immediately found out this strain was new and vitally UNTREATABLE.

But they didn't, because the Chinese are the way they are.

And now thousands of non Chinese are dead.

What say you to that?

My fervent hope is that one of the after effects of this is that the WHO gets new powers and countries with poor records regarding outbreaks are forced to be more open or face charges of "intentional death" WHEN another one happens and it's deliberately suppressed.

Because it will be WHEN.

So far in the last 100 years we have got off lightly, the Ebola outbreak would have been a LOT worse if it had happened in China instead of Africa, if China's recent behaviour is anything to go by.

Even an outbreak in India would be preferable.

But China and N.Korea - with thier Govt run "information lockdown" societies - from just the pandemic aspect they have proven both are a serious risk to the rest of the world, WITHOUT thier nukes.

That's one of the biggest things that needs to change - this pandemic has proven a biological threat to life CANNOT be controlled by regimes of information oppression / suppression - and to try is an exercise in extreme futility.

LOL - a biological threat to life is like The Borg - it'll happen whether you acknowledge it's happening or not.

I bet the chinese or Indians or most of the world were saying as much about us back in the day when we were an empire or when we ruled the manufacturing world or we traded in human beings. If there is one thing history has taught us or me is that its human nature to be greedy pineapples and exploitation occurs because its essentially the survival of the fittest. Human beings are flawed, we all are i'm afraid and the nature of capitalism is one sure fire way of ensuring that in the race to the top there are always people trodden on by others on the way up.

 

[Deadeye]

I'm not disputing the UK data, just curious as to why every country has completely different outcomes. Germany has a gazillion cases, but no one dies, in Spain 10% die, I think - every country has different data. I wonder what this means.

Briefly:
The issue is in both numerator and denominator - the accuracy of both varies wildly between countries. Both are also subject to timing problems - for example, if you take deaths as a proportion of infected, it will under-report.
In the UK we have very good data from hospitals. So we understand the deaths in hospital well. But there are also deaths occuring at home - and the data collation from GPs and undertakers is less reliable.
Once you want to talk about infected it gets really flaky. Many people self-isolate and never get recorded. Some people ring 111 with some symptoms and get recorded even though they only had a cold in reality. A bunch of infected people don't even know it themselves yet.
Countries that have put a lot of effort into testing (whole towns for example) have better incidence information than those that solely/mainly look through the lens of secondary care (like the UK).
Also testing currently looks for virus DNA, so if you have recovered you may test negative.
Overall, it's a mess. It will become less of a mess as time goes on and if/when a fast antibody test is available.
Another confounding point is that countries classify "underlying conditions" differently - it's very blunt in the UK, which tends to give false reassurance

That's just the reporting.
Underneath that are genuine differnces in outcome (probably) arising from genetics, health status, and intervention timing and quality. I'd say it's impossible to judge that just yet, with some obvious exceptions. I wouldn't want to be in India for example.

 

[Deadeye]

Ah the liberals reply. How quaint. Behind my current annoyance is some 35 yrs of doing business with the Chinese, most of Asia and the so called West.

Try doing business with a country which does not recognise my right to own my product through patents or copyright. A country which feels it can just copy and use my software for local companies. Yeah been there and tried that. Oddly the only country with the same approach as the West is Japan. Where what they sign up to is what they deliver. You just need to comprehend the rules of the game and the consequences of the desired outcome. China not so much.

China a parasite.....time to look at the facts.

China caused C19 to exist through poor animal welfare and negligence..true
China allowed many chinese to visit with the rest of the world after that for 3 months
China has tried to suppress the knowledge of the existence of C19
China continues to lie and obfuscate to throw the blame elsewhere
Chinas only interest is to prevent China becoming a hated state
China has lied about the size and volume of C19 dead
China yesterday issued a PR notice that Britain had failed its responsibilities through inaction
China has blamed a military US delegation in October for introducing the C19 to China
China has leveraged its manufacturing cost advantages to deskill the West.
China has used the C19 vacuum of attention to seize South China sea gas supplies

So fine you guys who have replied laugh your heads off and try to put down the facts BUT....it will come to pass that the UK Government will be faced with doing business with China on Chinese terms in the near future. I'd like to think they would not but I do know how politicos are so have no expectations.

The low cost argument is now a moot point. Chinese wages had risen quite high, goods are still cheapish but the gap is closing. Chinese manufacture is not all hightech and much that they make could be made here. After all the transport costs alone add significantly to their cost base. A few UK universities have explored this and tried to encourage UK manufacturing to pick up the ability to compete with high tech manufacturing systems but to no avail.

My electronics are made in Poland and Portugal. My critical electronic stuff is made in Stevenage. Cases are from Malaysia. When I have asked about complete UK manufacture the numbers returned have been only 13% more than Poland or Portugal inc transport. I have come to believe that high tech manufacturing would close that gap but who will make the investment needed to get it started. Not a Brit.

Nasty post. Xenophobic and badly informed.
For example, China did not "cause c19 to exist".
The virus existed and exists, very probably in bats. It bridged to man. You might recall that a bat enthusiast died of rabies here a couple of years back.
But, hey, haters gotta hate.

 

[RogerS]

I don't know how people can be religous in times like these. It has to raise some questions ...

Ah but the trite (and rather smug) response from a believer would be"Who are we to fathom the ways of God?"

 

[Lons]

For example, China did not "cause c19 to exist".
The virus existed and exists, very probably in bats. It bridged to man.

It does look possible that bats are the reservoir and the carriers were pangolins so of course China wasn't the cause of the virus existence however China and other Asian countries are definitely responsible for turning a blind eye to the existence of illegal wet markets where these animals are traded live, handled and killed, where animals from around the world are kept in close proximity to each other offering ideal opportunity for a virus to jump species.
In a much smaller way just look at how introducing grey squirrels to the UK has allowed the virus they carry to almost wipe out our native reds!

The Chinese authorities were well aware of the dangers and chose to ignore them and then appeared to do the usual cover up followed by deflection of blame. Should they be accountable? Too damn right!

 

[Jake]

I think it is helpful in some of these matters, given China is a dictatorship, to distinguish between the CCP and the Chinese people.

 

[RobinBHM]

Deadeye wrote:

Nasty post. Xenophobic and badly informed.
For example, China did not "cause c19 to exist".
The virus existed and exists, very probably in bats. It bridged to man. You might recall that a bat enthusiast died of rabies here a couple of years back.
But, hey, haters gotta hate

I agree.

It really is not helpful to go down the blame route. This country has seen far too much ramping up of division and hatred, we do not need more. Trump has been calling it the China virus to incite hatred and deflect from his own failure.

I would say the West should be more fearful of Russia -they have spent years spreading misinformation and lies, causing damage to our democracy and still is.

 

[RobinBHM]

For example, China did not "cause c19 to exist".
The virus existed and exists, very probably in bats. It bridged to man.

It does look possible that bats are the reservoir and the carriers were pangolins so of course China wasn't the cause of the virus existence however China and other Asian countries are definitely responsible for turning a blind eye to the existence of illegal wet markets where these animals are traded live, handled and killed, where animals from around the world are kept in close proximity to each other offering ideal opportunity for a virus to jump species.
In a much smaller way just look at how introducing grey squirrels to the UK has allowed the virus they carry to almost wipe out our native reds!

The Chinese authorities were well aware of the dangers and chose to ignore them and then appeared to do the usual cover up followed by deflection of blame. Should they be accountable? Too damn right!

The Chinese regime should be accountable, the difficulty is that Western governments may take the opportunity to play a public blame game to hide their own failings.
When this is over, the world needs to work with China to ensure there is the correct separation between animals and humans, to avoid any further zoonotic transmission.

In the meantime, stay safe everybody.
My neice is a radiographer, she is doing chest scans of covid patients frequently -so naturally Im really concerned about the high level of healthcare professionals getting infected.

 

[D_W]

I'm not disputing the UK data, just curious as to why every country has completely different outcomes. Germany has a gazillion cases, but no one dies, in Spain 10% die, I think - every country has different data. I wonder what this means.

Cases are vastly understated here, probably in spain, etc, but not in germany. Germany and S. Korea are testing people in droves compared to most of the rest of the world and thus reporting a lot of individuals who wouldn't be recorded in other countries. Dr. (can't remember his name) on youtube from the UK suggested the health care system is better run in Germany than the UK system - go figure that, germans running something neat and tidy and orderly).

My understanding from original studies was that some percentage of admissions require ventilation (about half here in my state so far). Without ventliation, they die. With ventilation, some die. Not sure how any of the drug trials are going so far, but we have something like 63 covid deaths. IT would likely be 4 times as much without ventilators.

What I'm getting toward is unless patients are being refused treatment (like happened in italy), I would be surprised if the death rate of actual infected folks in different countries differed by more than a factor of two. Suspect spain has a much greater number of cases and if they're reporting a quarter, then the death rate becomes 2.5% instead of ten.

Our death rate here so far is about 1.5% figuring on it being 2-3% as those who are currently critical don't make it. There is still excess capacity here (though that can change quickly). I'd be surprised if have of the cases have been reported as we have a lot of folks in the center part of the state here (and my neighbor - i live in the burbs, not in the rural center) who absolutely will not go to the hospital unless he's near death. He is afraid he'll be worse off there than here - lest one forget about the whole antiquated but often still regarded individualist thing in the states - suspicious of any large organization, government or business.

 

[D_W]

Deadeye wrote:

Nasty post. Xenophobic and badly informed.
For example, China did not "cause c19 to exist".
The virus existed and exists, very probably in bats. It bridged to man. You might recall that a bat enthusiast died of rabies here a couple of years back.
But, hey, haters gotta hate

I agree.

It really is not helpful to go down the blame route. This country has seen far too much ramping up of division and hatred, we do not need more. Trump has been calling it the China virus to incite hatred and deflect from his own failure.

I would say the West should be more fearful of Russia -they have spent years spreading misinformation and lies, causing damage to our democracy and still is.

Living in a country that ping pongs blame back and forth with Russia, I'd say covid is a bit more of a concern at the moment. Probably for Russia, too, especially given the propensity for drunkenness (which probably makes it hard to follow social distancing rules) and dense urban housing.