Coronavirus

[Rorschach]

Respectfully, Rorschach, you're seeing what you want to see. That's called Confirmation Bias. Are you seriously suggesting that all those 16 to 49 year olds would have died soon anyway? If you are, then you need to be able to back that claim up.

I probably am suffering from confirmation bias, we all do really. I am also an optimist most of the time so that probably doesn't help either.

I am not suggesting all those 16-49yr olds would have died soon, certainly some will have had some weakness to C19 infection, but as we have already seen with a comment above a 21yr old died in the US, found out later they had leukaemia. They only found that out though because they investigated, we are not doing that here so we have no idea exactly why those younger people died. They might have had undiagnosed medical problems, they might be genetically predisposed, we will never know unless proper investigation is done.

I am fully willing to admit I may be wrong and we might find out in a year or two, I really hope that none of you are wishing that I am wrong though.

 

[FatmanG]

Listening to the news this morning and recent days, it's very clear our govt did far too little, too late - testing kits and ppe, ventilators etc, and in my expert opinion, lockdown (came in too late and now still flabby and inadequate). 'Led by science' might have meant more had the govt started asking the right questions a lot earlier. But they didn't.
As far as I'm concerned we have to learn from this now, by making our own arrangements to avoid getting the virus, support those out there who are trying to protect us (in spite of the situation they're being placed in by lack of govt preparation), and hoping the govt will at least do all it can now to get us back on track (in relation to those govts of countries doing relatively well).
Stay home, ppe if you have to go out where others are, and guard against the virus sneaking in through the letter box/ shopping etc. And hope...

Respectfully you cannot back that claim up. Mass testing can only happen if the tests are obtainable and as it was pointed out to me days ago who will do the testing the fairies at the bottom of the garden. The tests need to be developed and 2 kinds. The world are trying to buy/make tests PPE ventilators. As far as I can see we as a nation are trying to meet every challenge head on and instead of folk spending all day criticising others why don't we all start trying to find solutions to problems our communities are facing. Debating is healthy but like the disease its named after this thread isn't.

 

[Andy Kev.]

China instigated a complete lockdown when the deaths reached 200, I believe. They were also first, so had to actually identify a new virus, understand that they were in trouble, and then take action. The fact that all the propaganda is saying that "China lied!", doesn't make it necessarily true - lots of different players wanting to put the boot in for different reasons have made China seemingly intent on killing the entre world, purely so they could avoid losing face. Western governments are purely benign and friendly, and the fact that they have managed to fail to control the virus, when they knew it was coming, is purely due to the nature of freedom and democracy, not incompetence or malevolent design. Only communist countries are evil. This must be true because that is the narrative. Oh, and Russia did it too, somehow.

Here's another viewpoint: the Chinese government was probably as incompetent as most other governments, but despite that they managed to do a much better job than most western governments. America's "Pivot to the East" just means we are now in a war of words with China, and a trade war, and if some defence company CEOs are very lucky, a shooting war, too. Can't go to war with Russia, because Russia would win, so let's have a war with the Chinese instead. "Oceana has always been at war with Eastasia".

It's a complex issue. I think that governmental incompetence is a universal given, the difference between countries being the difference in competence relating to specific issues. Some countries are probably generally more competent than others and the reasons may be cultural. For instance how would you fancy living under S. American governance? Would you prefer the governance found in any country with a mediterranean coastline to that to be found in Scandinavian countries, NL, DE and UK?

I have the impression that the Chinese govt is relatively ruthlessly efficient. It certainly has few constraints placed upon it by public opinion and with the exception of things like the Tianaman rebellion or Hong Kong, no public opinion ever comes to light. Chinese govt. is the communist party and all else must be subservient and subordinate to that.

The frightening implication of the latter is that the CP is subject only to those constraints which it chooses to accept for itself. IMO it is a ruthless, amoral organisation only concerned with what it sees as the PRC's i.e. it's own welfare and prosperity. Imagine governance by an amoral, international corporation e.g. one of the big merchant banks or a very major manufacturer (ref your other post). You get the striving after total dominance driven by total self-interest and restrained only by self expedience, any wider moral consensus being selectively applied and only when it suits.

You can perhaps imagine that I dislike China. I do and and as a consequence I do all I can to avoid buying products made in that country (says he, typing at a made-in-China Apple computer). I fear that at some point the rest of the world will have to take it on in a coordinated diplomatic/trade war. The only alternative is that somehow democracy breaks out in the place.

I think that much of the criticism made on here about the PRC is justified by the facts. There will/have been be the usual knee-jerk shouts of "racism". I would simply point to the facts of China's MO.

So to sum up: the fact that the virus broke out in China probably due to the sub-standard hygienic practices of the Chinese peasantry is essentially neither here nor there (there are places all over the world which are just as bad). The matter of the response to it was symptomatic of the diseased nature of that country's system of governance.

 

[lurker]

Listening to the news this morning and recent days, it's very clear our govt did far too little, too late - testing kits and ppe, ventilators etc, and in my expert opinion, lockdown (came in too late and now still flabby and inadequate). 'Led by science' might have meant more had the govt started asking the right questions a lot earlier. But they didn't.
As far as I'm concerned we have to learn from this now, by making our own arrangements to avoid getting the virus, support those out there who are trying to protect us (in spite of the situation they're being placed in by lack of govt preparation), and hoping the govt will at least do all it can now to get us back on track (in relation to those govts of countries doing relatively well).
Stay home, ppe if you have to go out where others are, and guard against the virus sneaking in through the letter box/ shopping etc. And hope...

The reason for this is we have neglected industry in this country for so long and now rely on others to supply us with products. We used to be world leaders in pharmaceutical research and chemical manufacture. Now, all we are good at is banking and other paper shuffling.
In Loughborough where I live, there is a massive pharmaceutical research campus and it's been sitting empty for 10 years.

 

[Chris152]

Listening to the news this morning and recent days, it's very clear our govt did far too little, too late - testing kits and ppe, ventilators etc, and in my expert opinion, lockdown (came in too late and now still flabby and inadequate). 'Led by science' might have meant more had the govt started asking the right questions a lot earlier. But they didn't.
As far as I'm concerned we have to learn from this now, by making our own arrangements to avoid getting the virus, support those out there who are trying to protect us (in spite of the situation they're being placed in by lack of govt preparation), and hoping the govt will at least do all it can now to get us back on track (in relation to those govts of countries doing relatively well).
Stay home, ppe if you have to go out where others are, and guard against the virus sneaking in through the letter box/ shopping etc. And hope...

Respectfully you cannot back that claim up. Mass testing can only happen if the tests are obtainable and as it was pointed out to me days ago who will do the testing the fairies at the bottom of the garden. The tests need to be developed and 2 kinds. The world are trying to buy/make tests PPE ventilators. As far as I can see we as a nation are trying to meet every challenge head on and instead of folk spending all day criticising others why don't we all start trying to find solutions to problems our communities are facing. Debating is healthy but like the disease its named after this thread isn't.

I certainly don't want a debate. Have you been listening to the news reports the last few days about testing kits, ppe and ventilators, and our govt's failure to get them in time? Maybe the experts making those observations are themselves the fairies from the bottom of the garden, I haven't checked, but I'm inclined to think they are indeed people who know what they're talking about. Here's Richard Horton, whose name sticks in my mind for some reason:
https://www.express.co.uk/videos/614512 ... oronavirus
Yes, everyone's trying to get the kit now - but they weren't a month or more ago.
As for criticising the govt - yes, I think that's necessary as in doing so we can see the need not to wait for them to protect us, that we also have to protect ourselves in so far as we can and hope the govt successfully plays catchup.

 

[RogerS]

Listening to the news this morning and recent days, it's very clear our govt did far too little, too late - testing kits and ppe, ventilators etc, and in my expert opinion, lockdown (came in too late and now still flabby and inadequate). 'Led by science' might have meant more had the govt started asking the right questions a lot earlier. But they didn't.
As far as I'm concerned we have to learn from this now, by making our own arrangements to avoid getting the virus, support those out there who are trying to protect us (in spite of the situation they're being placed in by lack of govt preparation), and hoping the govt will at least do all it can now to get us back on track (in relation to those govts of countries doing relatively well).
Stay home, ppe if you have to go out where others are, and guard against the virus sneaking in through the letter box/ shopping etc. And hope...

Respectfully you cannot back that claim up. Mass testing can only happen if the tests are obtainable and as it was pointed out to me days ago who will do the testing the fairies at the bottom of the garden. The tests need to be developed and 2 kinds. The world are trying to buy/make tests PPE ventilators. As far as I can see we as a nation are trying to meet every challenge head on and instead of folk spending all day criticising others why don't we all start trying to find solutions to problems our communities are facing. Debating is healthy but like the disease its named after this thread isn't.

A fair point but for one thing. The Govt/PHE/NHS et al did a very detailed 'What If' scenario some years ago (I don't recall the exact year but not that long ago) to model a pandemic and determine what was needed etc. PPE was way up there. But, the Govt ...regardless of political hue..did SFA.

Regarding testing or lack of testing or lack of reagent. The Germans thought about this a while back and planned for it. We did not.

 

[sploo]

It is possible people may be losing sight of who makes the decision to offshore, and why. Large corporations think exclusively in terms of share price, dividend, and financialization of those two items. Nobody particularly cares who makes what, but keeping the dividend payment up and and the share price bouyant is vitally important to the continued employment of the CEO, and his remuneration package.

Indeed; and see the faux concern of companies when some journalist writes an article about poor working conditions for the Chinese factory staff that make their product. A few press releases and claims to be looking into it, then hope it all dies down (until another Foxcon workers jumps off the factory roof).

 

[RobinBHM]

Listening to the news this morning and recent days, it's very clear our govt did far too little, too late - testing kits and ppe, ventilators etc, and in my expert opinion, lockdown (came in too late and now still flabby and inadequate). 'Led by science' might have meant more had the govt started asking the right questions a lot earlier. But they didn't.
As far as I'm concerned we have to learn from this now, by making our own arrangements to avoid getting the virus, support those out there who are trying to protect us (in spite of the situation they're being placed in by lack of govt preparation), and hoping the govt will at least do all it can now to get us back on track (in relation to those govts of countries doing relatively well).
Stay home, ppe if you have to go out where others are, and guard against the virus sneaking in through the letter box/ shopping etc. And hope...

I just heard a doctor saying the NHS guidelines for PPE equipment is being reverse engineered to suit what PPE they have available, not what is required to protect against the virus.

Also NHS staff are being threatened with the sack if they criticise government failings.

 

[Rorschach]

I just heard a doctor saying the NHS guidelines for PPE equipment is being reverse engineered to suit what PPE they have available, not what is required to protect against the virus.

Also NHS staff are being threatened with the sack if they criticise government failings.

Do you have evidence for this? I really hope it isn't true.

 

[Jake]

There are a raft of government policies including for PPE which apply for a High Consequence Infectious Disease (HCID). COVID was initially classified as an HCID. SARS and MERS remain classified as HCIDs, as do various influenzas. The government declassified COVID as an HCID on 19 March (they say that this was backed by the Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens, but do not mention NERVTAG). That is not say that the requirements are reverse engineered as set out above, but the decision to declassify as an HCID did set aside the existing pandemic policies and create a policy vacuum to be filled with bespoke policy including for PPE.

 

[Nigel Burden]

I just heard a doctor saying the NHS guidelines for PPE equipment is being reverse engineered to suit what PPE they have available, not what is required to protect against the virus.

Also NHS staff are being threatened with the sack if they criticise government failings.

Do you have evidence for this? I really hope it isn't true.

I have read this also in the Guardian on line this morning.

Nigel.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

 

[Andy Kev.]

As a rule I am in favour of people being free to criticise the government. The exceptions to this are perhaps wartime and where employees are required to sign a contract where they agree not to do it.

It seems to me that the current circumstances straddle the border of what should and should not be allowed. The feverish (no pun) climate resulting from the press having nothing to do but be obsessed about the virus which (and we must repeatedly state this) is not the equivalent of the Black Death or the 1918-19 flu means that almost any comment has the potential to be blown out of all proportion to its significance. There are signs that the BBC is already swinging towards an anti-government stance on the matter. Surprise, surprise.

IMO the short term dealing with the virus should be resolutely apolitical and it demands pulling together as a nation. The time for discussing everything will be when we have an enquiry once it is over. Mitigating against that is the fact that the NHS is the national political football and many of its staff seem to be fairly politicised. The Guardian, being what it is, will of course provide an all too willing amplifier for any concerns/criticisms they raise.

This means that we risk being diverted into a political row, which while it might give the clowns who inhabit the media something to do, would also have the potential to lower morale and determination to get to the end of the matter. It would also lead to more of what we already have in abundance: ill-informed members of the public going off at half-cock about something of which they have little real knowledge and of course getting terribly worried into the bargain.

I really can't make my mind up whether it is acceptable or not for the govt. to demand that NHS staff keep their traps shut. Possibly it is in the very short term and for the above reasons . If there are people deliberately trying to make politics out of all this, they should be ashamed of themselves. Otherwise we have to make do with the resources we have and crack on with getting through to the end of the matter.

 

[sploo]

I just heard a doctor saying the NHS guidelines for PPE equipment is being reverse engineered to suit what PPE they have available, not what is required to protect against the virus.

Also NHS staff are being threatened with the sack if they criticise government failings.

Do you have evidence for this? I really hope it isn't true.

Yes, this is pretty much exactly what's happening (wife is a doctor in a major NHS hospital). Basically the guidelines on what protective kit is required has been downgraded; to essentially what's available.

She hasn't mentioned anything about threats of sackings though.

...I really can't make my mind up whether it is acceptable or not for the govt. to demand that NHS staff keep their traps shut. Possibly it is in the very short term and for the above reasons . If there are people deliberately trying to make politics out of all this, they should be ashamed of themselves. Otherwise we have to make do with the resources we have and crack on with getting through to the end of the matter.

This is all fine; but if I were part of a group that had defunded your organisation for a decade, then packed you off to "fight" with inadequate equipment, you'd probably not be feeling all that positive towards me. Especially if I publicly engaged in sycophantic posturing about how great you are.

 

[Andy Kev.]

But you can instantly see what I mean about diverting it into politics, because you are talking about underfunding for a decade and the reply to that would be that the previous lot trashed the economy so comprehensively that the bullet had to be bitten and savings made. You can surely see where that will go.

And of course there is the fundamental matter that the NHS seems to be a bit of a financial black hole, irrespective of which party is in office, which leads me to think that the problems with the NHS are not political but rather structural or managerial.

 

[sploo]

But you can instantly see what I mean about diverting it into politics, because you are talking about underfunding for a decade and the reply to that would be that the previous lot trashed the economy so comprehensively that the bullet had to be bitten and savings made. You can surely see where that will go.

And of course there is the fundamental matter that the NHS seems to be a bit of a financial black hole, irrespective of which party is in office, which leads me to think that the problems with the NHS are not political but rather structural or managerial.

But there's money for other things, no? And the financial crisis was worldwide; and mainly triggered by dodgy mortgage loans and the risks taken by the banking sector.

Agreed that the NHS almost certainly could be improved from a structural and managerial point of view. Of course that's easy to say of any large organisation. Probably a lot harder to actually achieve.

 

[Andy Kev.]

There has to be money for everything and none of it is government money as it is all taken from us either in taxes or taken out in debt for which future generations will pay tax.

And whether we like it or not - and I presume that we all don't like it - the crisis clipped the spending wings of government. Where it arose (Clinton's interference in the US mortgage market) is neither here nor there.

I would suggest that the first thing that should happen with the NHS is that it should improve itself structurally and managerially: what are all those over-handsomely paid managers doing? Once it has shown itself to be as lean as possible, then it would make sense to spend in the most efficient and targeted way possible i.e. on actual healthcare. Otherwise there will continue to be an element of chucking good money after bad.

 

[RobinBHM]

Andy Kev wrote:

IMO the short term dealing with the virus should be resolutely apolitical and it demands pulling together as a nation.

I disagree for one simple reason: the government are lying.

we can only be apolitical all the time the government are being honest, as they aren't, they must be held to account. Lets remember this government got into to power and have been in the process of a right wing coup -we live in politically dangerous times.

this government is putting politics above dealing with this virus -if they arent being apolitical, you cant expect the electorate to be either.

 

[Andy Kev.]

Andy Kev wrote:

IMO the short term dealing with the virus should be resolutely apolitical and it demands pulling together as a nation.

I disagree for one simple reason: the government are lying.

we can only be apolitical all the time the government are being honest, as they aren't, they must be held to account. Lets remember this government got into to power and have been in the process of a right wing coup -we live in politically dangerous times.

this government is putting politics above dealing with this virus -if they arent being apolitical, you cant expect the electorate to be either.

Now this is precisely the kind of (malicious) nonsense that I am on about.

We are dealing with a virus which is a real world problem. This is no time to be diverting into politics, especially when the "arguments" involved get into hyperbole which borders on lying. No right wing coup has taken place. A government was elected according to the normal rules and procedures. You sound like one of those people who just can't accept things going against them.

I think we can expect the mods - justifiably in terms of forum policy - to delete your post and this, my reply to it.

 

[Rorschach]

And of course there is the fundamental matter that the NHS seems to be a bit of a financial black hole, irrespective of which party is in office

It's simpler than that, no matter how much money is spent on the NHS there will always be people saying it isn't enough. And to some extent they are right, by it's very definition when it comes to health and medicine there is always something else you could be spending money on, as long as people are dying of theoretically preventable illness then there is always research to do, treatments to develop etc.

Saying it is underfunded is a straw man argument, it is always underfunded and always will be, voting in a new party won't change that.

To a lesser extent this applies to any public service really, people always want more.