Coronavirus

[Steve Maskery]

I've just had news that the 20-something son of someone I once knew has died of C19. No pre-existing health problems.
It's a bit distant, certainly, but getting closer.

 

[D_W]

There have been younger deaths in the states, too. The first one, I couldn't help but notice that the writer had a terrible time telling an underlying fact until nearly the last line. The 21 year-old victim had undiagnosed leukemia.

I suspect that many young and middle-aged individuals are going to find out they were otherwise ill and didn't know it (but it'll be their relatives that find out, and not them).

 

[Jake]

German CFR is creeping upwards, now 0.9%. As I posted yesterday(?), South Korea is now at 1.5%. Both were at 0.6% for ages.

Obviously still early days but that is starting to make some of the more optimistic scenarios postulating a very large unknown asymptomatic hidden denominator issue look less likely (there obviously is one, the unknown is how large it is).

 

[sploo]

Not aliexpress or banggood something else quite recent - ...... Wish - it's called Wish - google reviews for Wish products.

Oh yeah, heard of them. Products look like tat; but it's not like there aren't plenty of other (worldwide) peddlers of cheap trinkets.

As far as profits are concerned - what was wrong with the profits they were making before? Why do you NEED £50 million if you were making £25 million? Pretty sure most of the major manufacturers in most western countries were doing ok - yes there were obvious downturns - but my limited knowledge thinks that the pursuit of "cheaper" led to the demise of most of the UK's shipping, steel and a bunch of other manufacturing mainstays, and the same for the USA.

No argument from me. I have no problem with the successful becoming wealthy, but not at the expense of harm to others.

Yes I get there will ALWAYS be people who undercut others, and those willing to chisel a little bit here and there off the quality to get it cheaper - but my question is - are we REALLY better off ?

Is the average person in western society REALLY that much better off because we can buy it cheaper than before?

I'm in the minortiy but I dont think we are - "cheaper" had led to the throwaway society we live in, creating more waste then in human history, and it's NOT just because there are more of us, go to any local refuse centre and just look at what's there - it's shocking if you actually allow yourself to think about it for just a moment, instead of maintaining the "fog of protective indifference" that 99.9% of people have been wearing for the last 40 years.

Yep. Agreed.

I do think there are some benefits to being able to buy products and equipment for budget prices, but I accept there can be negative cost (to domestic industries, and to those producing the products are unrealistically low prices).

To prevent that however, you either need to ensure people won't take advantage of the cheapest supplier (where the price indicates probable poor conditions for the workers producing it), or have a world-wide minimum set of working standards; such that it's not feasible for one country to undercut another simply by exploiting vulnerable workers. Noble, but unlikely to be feasible I fear.

 

[sploo]

I've just had news that the 20-something son of someone I once knew has died of C19. No pre-existing health problems.
It's a bit distant, certainly, but getting closer.

That's extremely sad Steve. Bad enough to lose anyone, but 20s is no time to go.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Not aliexpress or banggood something else quite recent - ...... Wish - it's called Wish - google reviews for Wish products.

Oh yeah, heard of them. Products look like tat; but it's not like there aren't plenty of other (worldwide) peddlers of cheap trinkets.

As far as profits are concerned - what was wrong with the profits they were making before? Why do you NEED £50 million if you were making £25 million? Pretty sure most of the major manufacturers in most western countries were doing ok - yes there were obvious downturns - but my limited knowledge thinks that the pursuit of "cheaper" led to the demise of most of the UK's shipping, steel and a bunch of other manufacturing mainstays, and the same for the USA.

No argument from me. I have no problem with the successful becoming wealthy, but not at the expense of harm to others.

Yes I get there will ALWAYS be people who undercut others, and those willing to chisel a little bit here and there off the quality to get it cheaper - but my question is - are we REALLY better off ?

Is the average person in western society REALLY that much better off because we can buy it cheaper than before?

I'm in the minortiy but I dont think we are - "cheaper" had led to the throwaway society we live in, creating more waste then in human history, and it's NOT just because there are more of us, go to any local refuse centre and just look at what's there - it's shocking if you actually allow yourself to think about it for just a moment, instead of maintaining the "fog of protective indifference" that 99.9% of people have been wearing for the last 40 years.

Yep. Agreed.

I do think there are some benefits to being able to buy products and equipment for budget prices, but I accept there can be negative cost (to domestic industries, and to those producing the products are unrealistically low prices).

To prevent that however, you either need to ensure people won't take advantage of the cheapest supplier (where the price indicates probable poor conditions for the workers producing it), or have a world-wide minimum set of working standards; such that it's not feasible for one country to undercut another simply by exploiting vulnerable workers. Noble, but unlikely to be feasible I fear.

It is possible people may be losing sight of who makes the decision to offshore, and why. Large corporations think exclusively in terms of share price, dividend, and financialization of those two items. Nobody particularly cares who makes what, but keeping the dividend payment up and and the share price bouyant is vitally important to the continued employment of the CEO, and his remuneration package.

Take share buy-backs: for the last two or three years most corporate types have had their companies taking on colossal debt, in order to buy back shares in the company. This has reduced the number of shares available, which increases both the share price through scarecity, and the dividend per share (fewer shares to divvy up the payment to), which also increases the share price. This practice has no effect on company manufacturing, sales or processes, but it makes the CEO and his suit-wearing chums very wealthy. Now the recession is here they are all bleating for bail-outs, because the level of company debt is unsustainable in any environment that isn't benign, and has zero interest rates.

In other words, off-shoring production is all about quarterly reports, share prices and clever financial shenanigans. It has very little to do with who makes what.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Why have UK journalists not been following up properly re the C19 virus. Stupid and unquestioning and lacking any investigative prowess the Uk journo's need to be sacked and replaced.

See here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEJ3VOA76qQ

See here...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WU00nSQoJjU

I am coming round to believe that the UK should seek reparations from China for this Chinese cock-up and lies.

The UK needs an immediate Industrial Strategy to begin to replace the Chinese manufactureing which we have allowed to develop but which makes us weaker. We should stop buying Chinese stuff be it telecomms or even woodworking tools and build an indigenous industry and do it now.

China is essentially a parasitic nation taking from the rest of the world but delivering back the Corona Virus.

This is not simply a racist rant but I have thought about this for the past 12 months or so. I would say the same if China was replaced by the US or Russia.

The UK needs to respond to this as though it was a war and place the nation on a war footing to fight it.

Would you charge the bloke who killed the bat and caused this disease with war crimes ?

No don't be daft, but a charge could well be made against the Chinese Govt for it's usual supression regime of "you're telling lies" and how they treated the Doctor who wanted to alert the people.

it's not unreasonable to suggest it COULD have been contained in an "outbreak" situation by the Chinese - if they had reached out to other nations and the WHO when it was immediately found out this strain was new and vitally UNTREATABLE.

But they didn't, because the Chinese are the way they are.

And now thousands of non Chinese are dead.

What say you to that?

My fervent hope is that one of the after effects of this is that the WHO gets new powers and countries with poor records regarding outbreaks are forced to be more open or face charges of "intentional death" WHEN another one happens and it's deliberately suppressed.

Because it will be WHEN.

So far in the last 100 years we have got off lightly, the Ebola outbreak would have been a LOT worse if it had happened in China instead of Africa, if China's recent behaviour is anything to go by.

Even an outbreak in India would be preferable.

But China and N.Korea - with thier Govt run "information lockdown" societies - from just the pandemic aspect they have proven both are a serious risk to the rest of the world, WITHOUT thier nukes.

That's one of the biggest things that needs to change - this pandemic has proven a biological threat to life CANNOT be controlled by regimes of information oppression / suppression - and to try is an exercise in extreme futility.

LOL - a biological threat to life is like The Borg - it'll happen whether you acknowledge it's happening or not.

China instigated a complete lockdown when the deaths reached 200, I believe. They were also first, so had to actually identify a new virus, understand that they were in trouble, and then take action. The fact that all the propaganda is saying that "China lied!", doesn't make it necessarily true - lots of different players wanting to put the boot in for different reasons have made China seemingly intent on killing the entre world, purely so they could avoid losing face. Western governments are purely benign and friendly, and the fact that they have managed to fail to control the virus, when they knew it was coming, is purely due to the nature of freedom and democracy, not incompetence or malevolent design. Only communist countries are evil. This must be true because that is the narrative. Oh, and Russia did it too, somehow.

Here's another viewpoint: the Chinese government was probably as incompetent as most other governments, but despite that they managed to do a much better job than most western governments. America's "Pivot to the East" just means we are now in a war of words with China, and a trade war, and if some defence company CEOs are very lucky, a shooting war, too. Can't go to war with Russia, because Russia would win, so let's have a war with the Chinese instead. "Oceana has always been at war with Eastasia".

 

[MikeG.]

........no one in the west has a job of any value.........

So nurses, doctors, dentists, charity workers, teachers, university lecturers, scientists, engineers, researchers, vets, farmers........none of these are jobs of any value. Interesting perspective you have there.

 

[Rorschach]

There have been younger deaths in the states, too. The first one, I couldn't help but notice that the writer had a terrible time telling an underlying fact until nearly the last line. The 21 year-old victim had undiagnosed leukemia.

I suspect that many young and middle-aged individuals are going to find out they were otherwise ill and didn't know it (but it'll be their relatives that find out, and not them).

Yes I think that will be the case. The problem here is that no autopsies or investigations are being carried out, if they die and they test positive for C19 then that is simply the cause of death. Not really going to give a true picture of things.

 

[Blackswanwood]

I am a bit perplexed by the debate as to whether these are deaths that would have happened anyway. Surely the point is that there are deaths occurring and that will continue to happen which are avoidable if we take certain steps?

 

[Rorschach]

I am a bit perplexed by the debate as to whether these are deaths that would have happened anyway. Surely the point is that there are deaths occurring and that will continue to happen which are avoidable if we take certain steps?

You've missed a good chunk of this thread then.

To summarise:
We don't know if the deaths are unavoidable.
We don't know if these deaths are "excess deaths".
We don't know if these deaths would have occurred very soon anyway from something else.
We don't know if the steps taken to avoid the deaths now will actually end up causing more deaths later on.

 

[FatmanG]

Why have UK journalists not been following up properly re the C19 virus. Stupid and unquestioning and lacking any investigative prowess the Uk journo's need to be sacked and replaced.

I am coming round to believe that the UK should seek reparations from China for this Chinese cock-up and lies.

The UK needs an immediate Industrial Strategy to begin to replace the Chinese manufactureing which we have allowed to develop but which makes us weaker. We should stop buying Chinese stuff be it telecomms or even woodworking tools and build an indigenous industry and do it now.

China is essentially a parasitic nation taking from the rest of the world but delivering back the Corona Virus.

This is not simply a racist rant but I have thought about this for the past 12 months or so. I would say the same if China was replaced by the US or Russia.

The UK needs to respond to this as though it was a war and place the nation on a war footing to fight it.

Would you charge the bloke who killed the bat and caused this disease with war crimes ?

No don't be daft, but a charge could well be made against the Chinese Govt for it's usual supression regime of "you're telling lies" and how they treated the Doctor who wanted to alert the people.

What say you to that?

My fervent hope is that one of the after effects of this is that the WHO gets new powers and countries with poor records regarding outbreaks are forced to be more open or face charges of "intentional death" WHEN another one happens and it's deliberately suppressed.

Because it will be WHEN.

So far in the last 100 years we have got off lightly, the Ebola outbreak would have been a LOT worse if it had happened in China instead of Africa, if China's recent behaviour is anything to go by.

Even an outbreak in India would be preferable.

But China and N.Korea - with thier Govt run "information lockdown" societies - from just the pandemic aspect they have proven both are a serious risk to the rest of the world, WITHOUT thier nukes.


China instigated a complete lockdown when the deaths reached 200, I believe. They were also first, so had to actually identify a new virus, understand that they were in trouble, and then take action. The fact that all the propaganda is saying that "China lied!", doesn't make it necessarily true - lots of different players wanting to put the boot in for different reasons have made China seemingly intent on killing the entre world, purely so they could avoid losing face. Western governments are purely benign and friendly, and the fact that they have managed to fail to control the virus, when they knew it was coming, is purely due to the nature of freedom and democracy, not incompetence or malevolent design. Only communist countries are evil. This must be true because that is the narrative. Oh, and Russia did it too, somehow.

Here's another viewpoint: the Chinese government was probably as incompetent as most other governments, but despite that they managed to do a much better job than most western governments. America's "Pivot to the East" just means we are now in a war of words with China, and a trade war, and if some defence company CEOs are very lucky, a shooting war, too. Can't go to war with Russia, because Russia would win, so let's have a war with the Chinese instead. "Oceana has always been at war with Eastasia".

TN
From this thread its clear to me that most on here giving the big speeches with the fancy words who have had a go at most of the world and everyone in it are no different to Trump et all. 80 pages systematically having a go at anyone and everyone. Easy to do from the relative safety of behind a keyboard. The opinions expressed on this thread by too many people are at best disgusting at worst vile and abhorrent. Droning on and on with political length posts blaming govt or the police are corrupt or the Dr and nurses treating the sick and dying are nothing special its there job. They knew the risks when they signed up.
SHAMEFUL

 

[MikeG.]

.......We don't know if these deaths would have occurred very soon anyway from something else.........

Respectfully, that means you've missed a chunk of the thread. We DO know this. Please see the data and video I linked to yesterday.

 

[RogerS]

I am a bit perplexed by the debate as to whether these are deaths that would have happened anyway. Surely the point is that there are deaths occurring and that will continue to happen which are avoidable if we take certain steps?

That's a very reasonable question to ask. And you're right...we should be and are taking those steps to minimise loss of life. Anyone suggesting that the loss to the economy because of these steps is too great lacks humanity IMO.

 

[Rorschach]

.......We don't know if these deaths would have occurred very soon anyway from something else.........

Respectfully, that means you've missed a chunk of the thread. We DO know this. Please see the data and video I linked to yesterday.

Yes I have watched the video. That data misses out important points, no autopsies, no investigation, no widespread testing, no antibody testing.
Yes C19 is killing people, yes it would appear to be deadlier than seasonal flu (though we do vaccinate against that so numbers are skewed). But we don't know the true infection figures and won't for a long time. We also cannot predict what would happen to those people, they could be very prone to respiratory problems and would have caught seasonal flu.

As I said several times before, we will only know the true extent of this in a year or two when we can look at the excess deaths, though of course without autopsies even that number will be skewed higher than it is.

 

[Rorschach]

That's a very reasonable question to ask. And you're right...we should be and are taking those steps to minimise loss of life. Anyone suggesting that the loss to the economy because of these steps is too great lacks humanity IMO.

I know Roger won't read this, but loss to the economy also means deaths, just more invisible ones. It's a sad fact but true.

 

[Blackswanwood]

I am a bit perplexed by the debate as to whether these are deaths that would have happened anyway. Surely the point is that there are deaths occurring and that will continue to happen which are avoidable if we take certain steps?

You've missed a good chunk of this thread then.

To summarise:
We don't know if the deaths are unavoidable.
We don't know if these deaths are "excess deaths".
We don't know if these deaths would have occurred very soon anyway from something else.
We don't know if the steps taken to avoid the deaths now will actually end up causing more deaths later on.

No I have not missed any of it Rorschach. Deaths are avoidable if we don't spread Covid19 - debating whether certain deaths would have happened anyway doesn't really help anything. That's my view - clearly though you know best on everything with your laser like analysis so I'll leave it there!

 

[MikeG.]

.....Yes I have watched the video. That data misses out important points, no autopsies, no investigation, no widespread testing, no antibody testing..........

Respectfully, Rorschach, you're seeing what you want to see. That's called Confirmation Bias. Are you seriously suggesting that all those 16 to 49 year olds would have died soon anyway? If you are, then you need to be able to back that claim up.

 

[RogerS]

I am a bit perplexed by the debate as to whether these are deaths that would have happened anyway. Surely the point is that there are deaths occurring and that will continue to happen which are avoidable if we take certain steps?

You've missed a good chunk of this thread then.

To summarise:
We don't know if the deaths are unavoidable.
We don't know if these deaths are "excess deaths".
We don't know if these deaths would have occurred very soon anyway from something else.
We don't know if the steps taken to avoid the deaths now will actually end up causing more deaths later on.

No I have not missed any of it Rorschach. Deaths are avoidable if we don't spread Covid19 - debating whether certain deaths would have happened anyway doesn't really help anything. That's my view - clearly though you know best on everything with your laser like analysis so I'll leave it there!

Ah, the bliss of the Ignore list, Blackswanwood....you're not on it, I hasten to add !

 

[Chris152]

Listening to the news this morning and recent days, it's very clear our govt did far too little, too late - testing kits and ppe, ventilators etc, and in my expert opinion, lockdown (came in too late and now still flabby and inadequate). 'Led by science' might have meant more had the govt started asking the right questions a lot earlier. But they didn't.
As far as I'm concerned we have to learn from this now, by making our own arrangements to avoid getting the virus, support those out there who are trying to protect us (in spite of the situation they're being placed in by lack of govt preparation), and hoping the govt will at least do all it can now to get us back on track (in relation to those govts of countries doing relatively well).
Stay home, ppe if you have to go out where others are, and guard against the virus sneaking in through the letter box/ shopping etc. And hope...