Clifton cap iron for stanley No.4

[woodbloke]

Simples dear Rob.

The accurate meeting of TWO perfectly flat faces at a point defines the perfect edge....

The ruler trick is nothing short of multi-bevelism de la Grimsdale!!! :mrgreen:

Jim

Now we're getting into the realms of what he 'ruler trick' actually does...it will give a dead flat surface on the back, it's just that it's around a mm wide instead of the whole shooting match, so you still end up with two perfectly flat surfaces. it's just that the RT as far as I'm concerned can't be done with the bigger half of the Clifi cr@p iron place! - Rob

 

[Racers]

Hi,

How about drilling a hole in the offending part and gluing in a magnet,
I don't like to think about water getting under the top piece and rusting while I am using my waterstones but apart from that I don't have any problems with them myself, I think they work well.

You can do the ruler trick with an imagery ruler :wink:


Pete

 

[Paul Chapman]

I really don't get this obsession with the front piece of the Record Stay-Set or Clifton two-piece cap iron apparently falling off. The two pieces of the cap iron have slots milled in them which engage when you assemble it. There is also a location pin in one part which engages in a hole in the other part, so the two pieces are firmly held together. In fact you would have to turn the blade and cap iron assembly upside down in order for the front piece to fall off.

I have Clifton two-piece or Record Stay-Set cap irons fitted to all my bench planes and have never had the front piece of the cap irons fall off. I can only assume that some of you are very clumsy in the way you handle your tools.........

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

Using the Richard Kell No.2 honing guide that arrived from Workshop Heaven yesterday along with the 2 piece cap iron I can remove the lower piece of the cap iron and hone the blade while the top section remains in place. Nice, quick, easy and effective!

...agreed. The RKII is a nice honing jig, I use the III. But try and do the 'ruler tick' on the back with the bigger half still screwed in place and you'll find it's next to impossible, which is one of the reasons why I detest the Clifi/Record SS cr@p irons.

So here's the thing...if the wretched things are so good, why is only one current manufacturer using them? See them on a Rob Lee plane or something from TLN? (or any other current make for that matter...happy to be proved wrong though if someone can show me one)
Answer. No...they've seen the light and know that there are better alternatives. Cr@p by name and cr@p by nature! :lol: :lol: - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

See them on a Rob Lee plane .................?
Answer. No...they've seen the light and know that there are better alternatives.

Actually, the Veritas bevel-down planes use the rather crude bent-metal type of cap iron, similar to those used on Record and Stanley planes, which is possibly the worst type of cap iron. I find this quite surprising given the innovative nature of many Veritas products, but there you go.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

See them on a Rob Lee plane .................?
Answer. No...they've seen the light and know that there are better alternatives.

Actually, the Veritas bevel-down planes use the rather crude bent-metal type of cap iron, similar to those used on Record and Stanley planes, which is possibly the worst type of cap iron. I find this quite surprising given the innovative nature of many Veritas products, but there you go.

Cheers :wink:

Paul

That's skirting the issue Paul :-" ...it's the two piece cap iron here that's under discussion, not a comparison 'twixt single cap irons (however good or bad) and two piece ones. Which other current manufacturer's apart from Clifi use a two piece cap iron? None - Rob

 

[Paul Chapman]

Which other current manufacturer's apart from Clifi use a two piece cap iron? None

Agreed, no other manufacturer uses the two-piece cap iron. That's why those of us who want the best buy Clifton planes 8) 8)

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[kirkpoore1]

...The ruler trick is nothing short of multi-bevelism de la Grimsdale!!! :mrgreen:

Jim

Multi-bevelism? The horror!

Anon
who dared not look up the Grimsdale reference...

 

[Alf]

I have Clifton two-piece or Record Stay-Set cap irons fitted to all my bench planes and have never had the front piece of the cap irons fall off. I can only assume that some of you are very clumsy in the way you handle your tools.........

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Hey! Come over here and say that, Chappers. :twisted: :lol:

Although, honestly, it's probably quite likely in my case. But I dunno, I have this utterly ridiculous habit of turning an iron over to look at the state of the bevel before getting to sharpening it, which is when the ruddy piece always drops off. Maybe it's because I never had enough of them to get in the habit of pandering to its need to hurl itself on the floor? Not being a Clifton c*ll*ct*r, unlike some people... :-"

If anyone's reading all this and is now utterly stumped as to what to do, cap iron wise, then while you try and decide which side is talking most nonsense (Psst - it's Paul's. Honest. ) you could do much worse than follow Mr Charlesworth's advice on tuning up a regular thin Stanley-esque cap iron. Most effective. And absolutely guaranteed not to fall on your toe. (Unless you're clumsy like Rob and me. )

 

[David C]

Dear Jimi,

I must absolutely and completely reject, any connection or association with Grimsdaleism whatsoever ..........

The ruler trick has nothing to do with convex bevels, (although it must be said there is nothing intrinsically wrong with convex bevels).

yours apoplectically,

David Charlesworth

 

[Racers]

Hi, Chaps

You could make your own cap iron from 3mm plate with a slight bend in it, I made one, its on here somewhere and I made a toe bighter for a SS capiron as well.

Pete

p.s. good to see you back DC

 

[paulm]

I really don't get this obsession with the front piece of the Record Stay-Set or Clifton two-piece cap iron apparently falling off. The two pieces of the cap iron have slots milled in them which engage when you assemble it. There is also a location pin in one part which engages in a hole in the other part, so the two pieces are firmly held together. In fact you would have to turn the blade and cap iron assembly upside down in order for the front piece to fall off.

I have Clifton two-piece or Record Stay-Set cap irons fitted to all my bench planes and have never had the front piece of the cap irons fall off. I can only assume that some of you are very clumsy in the way you handle your tools.........

Cheers :wink:

Paul

Likewise Paul, can't understand why some folk have such an irrational hang up about something that requires less manual dexterity than tying your shoelaces or scratching the end of your nose, weird and vaguely worrying at some level ! :lol:

Cheers, Paul

 

[Paul Chapman]

Likewise Paul, can't understand why some folk have such an irrational hang up about something that requires less manual dexterity than tying your shoelaces or scratching the end of your nose, weird and vaguely worrying at some level ! :lol:

:lol: Rob probably has Velcro straps on his trainers :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

 

[woodbloke]

Likewise Paul, can't understand why some folk have such an irrational hang up about something that requires less manual dexterity than tying your shoelaces or scratching the end of your nose, weird and vaguely worrying at some level ! :lol:

:lol: Rob probably has Velcro straps on his trainers :lol:

Cheers :wink:

Paul

How very dare you Chappers :lol: ...in all my very nearly 60 years I've never owned a pair of trainers, ever! Tractor tyred plimsols in my youf, yes, winkle pickers in the 60's and equally hideous footwear in the 70's...but never trainers :twisted: Almost in the same league as the item under present discussion - Rob

 

[condeesteso]

Late to this one, but I suspect 2 piece caps are our Marmite. Personally I have been very impressed with them on a couple of Records, but it's fine by me that some don't like them.
Re the ruler trick, I tried that once on a new pricey plane and regretted it. Easy to create, the very devil to get rid of later. But it's handy for recovering an old tired blade. And I don't think you need a ruler. I just lift the back of blade up a tiny amount (probably a few degrees max) and wipe the blade across the 8k waterstone a few times. And of course sometimes you want the extra pitch anyway.

 

[woodbloke]

Late to this one, but I suspect 2 piece caps are our Marmite. Personally I have been very impressed with them on a couple of Records, but it's fine by me that some don't like them.
Re the ruler trick, I tried that once on a new pricey plane and regretted it. Easy to create, the very devil to get rid of later. But it's handy for recovering an old tired blade. And I don't think you need a ruler. I just lift the back of blade up a tiny amount (probably a few degrees max) and wipe the blade across the 8k waterstone a few times. And of course sometimes you want the extra pitch anyway.

If you care to work out the maths ('math' for 'murricans) the actual angle created on the back by the ruler trick is absolutely miniscule and makes no practical difference whatsoever to the pitch and the way the blade cuts...if a very thin rule is used it's certainly not 'degrees' (as in more than a few) that the blade is lifted and if I recollect, it's much, much less than that. What it does mean that only the first mm or so of the back of the plane blade need be polished, rather than trying to polish the whole of the back of the blade - Rob

 

[woodbrains]

Hi.

Just had to sharpen 20 new block planes for the D&T dept in school today. Most awful Far Eastern pieces of junk, but school budgets these days won't stretch to anything even as 'fine' as modern Stanleys! At least the school I'm at is trying to introduce some hand skills in this day and age, so I'm not complaining too much. The ruler trick was an absolute godsend in this instance.

Regarding the 2 piece cap irons; the extra thickness and the fact that it keeps the blade flat are the 2 critical benefits gained and not acheivable any other way, which makes these cap irons the most superior sort in terms of performance. The stay set aspect is really only useful for honing without any guides and may save a little time, but probably not worth worrying about. Those who want to use honing guides or the ruler trick; just put a strip of sellotape across the join and remove the whole thing for honing as you would a regular cap iron. No disadvantage there, no lost end bit but all the chatter free advantages of the heavier cap iron. I think they really do transform an ordinary plane into a LN rival.

Mike.

 

[jimi43]

This subject is absolutely wonderful to bring up every so often...I think is should be the GODWIN of UKW threads...surely by now!

As you can see...I cannot take it seriously anymore...although I was impressed with the J.Sainsbury (Read RECORD TOOLS) attempt at justifying the SS invention.

I think that in those days...returning to thick caps to excuse the thinning of irons since the infill (or woodie) days...was a bold attempt at making the whole thing chatterproof.....

I like the SS variants because of the thickness really...and now we have replacement irons of a nice thickness from most makers...thick cap irons...(probably not really needed on some planes)....and better engineering....they are maybe a bit old hat. I just happen to like the design of the Cliffie ones. MAYBE a warning notice on the cap itself something like....

"DANGER...MAY FALL OFF ON YOUR TOE IF YOU DON'T HOLD IT LIKE MOST PEOPLE"

...would be a great H&S addition!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

Sincere apologies Mr C......I don't know WHAT I was thinking of....but glad to see you back in the land of comic shock...instead of anatomical shock! :wink:

Jim

 

[woodbloke]

I like the SS variants because of the thickness really...and now we have replacement irons of a nice thickness from most makers...thick cap irons...(probably not really needed on some planes)....and better engineering....they are maybe a bit old hat. I just happen to like the design of the Cliffie ones.


Jim

Thanks Jim :lol: Don't forget also that as well as nice thick irons, there are also nice thick chipbreakers to go with them, as anyone who owns a LN will attest...

Nice as well to see MrC back with us...welcome David - Rob

 

[David C]

Thanks chaps and thanks alf,

I will be back to full strength in a couple of months or so and will be running my courses from May.

best wishes,
David Charlesworth