Choosing Chisels

[studders]

So you're quite happy to ride any size, make, configuration of Bike?

 

[studders]

Yawn. :roll:

There... saved you the bother.

 

[kygaloot]

James,

An opinion from the other side of the pond.....you live in chisel heaven! Modern manufacturers have yet to equal the steel used in vintage Sheffield cast steel chisels. Even the no-name ones that I have (usually just stamped Sheffield Cast Steel) are better than any modern western chisel that I have used.

From what I have read, you can purchase a bench grinder, some cool running grinding wheels, and a dozen vintage Sheffield chisels and have quite a few pounds left over compared to buying LN's, Ashley Isles, or Henry Taylors. As others have mentioned, you are going to need some method of maintaining the chisels anyway, and the grinder comes in handy for other tasks around the shop.

Jeff

 

[Jacob]

So you're quite happy to ride any size, make, configuration of Bike?

Not a good analogy. The difference between say a LN and a Stanley fat max, same size, are so little that it really wouldn't make any difference to the job in hand whichever you used. They are effectively identical (almost). Then consider crumbly A2 steel, dropping off handles, high cost, and the fatmax is obviously much better value in terms of usability, without a shadow of doubt.
The differences are largely cosmetic.
So you are out on a time trial etc and your Boardman carbon fibre collapses and all you can get your hands on is a heavy old shopper - you are up sh|t creek!

 

[matthewwh]

James,
Modern manufacturers have yet to equal the steel used in vintage Sheffield cast steel chisels.
Jeff

Hi Jeff,

You have a commonly held misconception.

Given 100 years of advances in metallurgical science, computerised furnaces that manage temperature to a fraction of a degree and the ability to analyse chemical composition to hundredths of a %, can you genuinely believe that the steel industry of 2012 is producing inferior products to the industry of 1912?

What you are comparing is chisels that have been properly hardened by a metalworker with ones that have been hardened by an accountant in the 1970's (big tie - annoyingly cheerful - you know the type). Thanks to the wonders of mechanisation, the 70's accountant's decision to invest in inaccurate, inconsistent induction hardening technology (and thereby achieve lower unit costs and get his bonus) lasted long enough to establish the opinion quoted above.

Throughout this period the steel industry and the making things that harden steel industries have largely ignored the 70's accountant and decided to continue to advance independently of him. We are therefore thankfully able to slip back into the evolutionary process in pretty much the same spot that we would have been in had the accountant never existed should we choose to do so.

Although becoming rarer, accountant's chisels can still be found in sets of six for £2.99 (if you haggle hard enough they will probably pay you to take them away). I would however suggest that comparing them to a properly made 1912 chisel that would have cost a weeks wages when new, is scant evidence for a sweeping 'all old chisels are better than all new chisels' summary.

Whilst I've got my expounding plank out - all steel is cast. The mark began as a means of separating steel purified in a crucible from that which hadn't been. Once the process had become ubiquitous, the mark became irrelevant and they stopped putting it on.

 

[jimi43]

I don't agree that steel made by accurate machines from formulae created by lab boffins are necessarily "better" Matthew, and I tend to side with Jeff here.

On paper the metal should be better for the job but in practice there are a number of surrounding issues...the "touchy feely" issues when a human encounters something "made" that don't make it just a simple subject of science.

If we were to deduce that "modern metallurgy" > "old traditional metalworking"...where do we put Japanese laminated steel?

If we add price or value elements into the mix I think that old Sheffield wins hands down...and is certainly a great route for a new enthusiast to take. Even if they finally gain enough personal knowledge to buy the best that the West or East can produce...they will learn a lot along the way...not the least of which will be restoration, care and sharpening techniques.

I am not in any sense an old traditionalist....after all....why would I put one of your fine QS T10 steel irons in my 100+ year old panel infill if I were......

Rather I consider my woodworking to be based on value born of lack of funds....a route I would recommend to anyone! :wink:

Jim

 

[kygaloot]

Hello Matthew,

I do not take the position that I stated just because I believe that older is necessarily better, nor do I know the details of manufacturing then or now. (And you know what I mean by "cast steel", i.e. the era in which it was stamped on the chisel.) What I do know is how the steel behaves on the stone and on wood. I have experienced the space age steels manufactured in what others have described as very sophisticated technological environments. While some of them are good, and certainly better than the dreck produced in the 1970's, it is my opinion as a user, that there is still something missing. I do not know what it is. With my Butcher, Charles Taylor, Ward, older Marples, and Sorby chisels, the steel feels "buttery", very fine grained, takes an edge easily and retains it for a long, long, long time. The only relatively modern western chisels that come close to these are those made in Eskilstuna, Sweden. However, they tend to be rarer and hence more expensive.

So, with all of those wonderful old Sheffield chisels laying about in boot sales at such low prices, why not buy a great tool at a great price, and own a piece of English history? Of course, I understand that it does not help the guy who sells new chisels......

Jeff

 

[nanowire]

Hello Matthew,

I do not take the position that I stated just because I believe that older is necessarily better, nor do I know the details of manufacturing then or now. (And you know what I mean by "cast steel", i.e. the era in which it was stamped on the chisel.) What I do know is how the steel behaves on the stone and on wood. I have experienced the space age steels manufactured in what others have described as very sophisticated technological environments. While some of them are good, and certainly better than the dreck produced in the 1970's, it is my opinion as a user, that there is still something missing. I do not know what it is. With my Butcher, Charles Taylor, Ward, older Marples, and Sorby chisels, the steel feels "buttery", very fine grained, takes an edge easily and retains it for a long, long, long time. The only relatively modern western chisels that come close to these are those made in Eskilstuna, Sweden. However, they tend to be rarer and hence more expensive.

So, with all of those wonderful old Sheffield chisels laying about in boot sales at such low prices, why not buy a great tool at a great price, and own a piece of English history? Of course, I understand that it does not help the guy who sells new chisels......

Jeff

Unfortunately neither CI Fall(not totally sure) or Bahco produce chisels in Eskilstuna any longer.

Regarding steel quality there are ways to achieve high levels of precision and quality even without computerized environments. I've eg. read somewhere that the Berg factory used liquid baths of lead (or alloys there of) to quickly get to the correct temperature when hardening. I am no metallurgist though, but I would guess that it is not allowed any more and that it might also be to expansive...

 

[kygaloot]

Nanowire,

Just to clarify, I was not talking about any contemporary Swedish makers, but Berg, Janport, Gensco, etc.

Jeff

 

[matthewwh]

Hello Matthew,
With my Butcher, Charles Taylor, Ward, older Marples, and Sorby chisels, the steel feels "buttery", very fine grained, takes an edge easily and retains it for a long, long, long time.
Jeff

What a pleasure it is to work with people who recognise and appreciate good workmanship - it is the forging of the steel to compact and refine the grain structure then heat treating it to balance on the metaphorical knife edge between toughness and hardness that produces the qualities that you so eloquently describe above, all of which is the craft of the Blacksmith.

My point is merely that the assertion that we cannot make the raw material as well as we could then - which would imply that it is now impossible to make tools of this quality, is inaccurate.

The Smiths of old would have given their eye teeth for the quality and consistency of raw material that we have today. The thing that has become a bit thin on the ground is their skills to work and heat treat it correctly. Thankfully they have been passed down through apprenticeship and are still being practiced, as anyone who has ever sharpened a Clifton plane iron or Ashley Iles chisel will attest.

I should also point out that I am only referring to pure carbon steels - which I much prefer for the reasons Jeff describes above.

 

[bobbybirds]

I still would not part with my A2 steel Blue Spruce chisels at gunpoint. For sure they are not in the same price range as vintage premium chisels, but when the vintage premium chisels were new, I would point out that their cost vs the money one made in those days were not a lot different than their premium counterparts today, and I kind of like knowing that one day 100 years from now, there is a good chance that my chisels today will be some lucky persons bargain garage sale find, and they will talk about how great tools were "back in the day" and that people are crazy to spend money on new tools while there are such great vintage deals out there...

 

[kygaloot]

My point is merely that the assertion that we cannot make the raw material as well as we could then - which would imply that it is now impossible to make tools of this quality, is inaccurate. The Smiths of old would have given their eye teeth for the quality and consistency of raw material that we have today. The thing that has become a bit thin on the ground is their skills to work and heat treat it correctly. Thankfully they have been passed down through apprenticeship and are still being practiced, as anyone who has ever sharpened a Clifton plane iron or Ashley Iles chisel will attest.

This is quite a valid point regarding the raw material that one begins with. It is the process downstream where one wonders if some of what we today call "core competency" was lost when the accountants were running the show. I know that a very similar phenomena has occurred in the industry with which I have experience. Great investments were made in CAD/CAM, CNC machine tools, fixtures and inspection equipment, with the thinking that these would replace the machinist with 30 years of experience. In some respects, there were significant improvements in quality and productivity but something was very definitely lost. When something was amiss, no one knew how to solve the problem. Potholes that the experienced craftsman knew to avoid were re-discovered but without the knowledge as to how to solve the problem. No doubt we can certainly improve upon what has gone before; however, I believe that there is an element of craftsmanship involved that can't be replaced with technology, though improved technology can be of great benefit.

Jeff

 

[Vann]

...and I kind of like knowing that one day 100 years from now, there is a good chance that my chisels today will be some lucky persons bargain garage sale find, and they will talk about how great tools were "back in the day"...

Not a chance ! Your chisels will be worthless in 100 years time....as the only wood left will be on/in the trees in your local tree zoo. :mrgreen:

Cheers, Vann.

 

[nanowire]

Nanowire,

Just to clarify, I was not talking about any contemporary Swedish makers, but Berg, Janport, Gensco, etc.

Jeff

OK, I see. I am all with you then since Berg, Rosenfors and Jernbolaget (all Eskilstuna chisels) are the only ones i use

My other point was basically the same that matthewwh later made; that even though the raw material might have been comparable rarer and more expensive, knowledgeable labor wasn't and they surely knew what to do with that steel...

 

[David111s]

Hello,

Just thought I'd add my thoughts on chisel choices.

I have a set of LN A2 which hold a razor edge perfectly! I use this set for chopping really fine joints, for day to day trimming, paring ect I have a few Ashley Iles mk1s and mk2s which hold a great edge and for the price are fantastic particularly the new Mk2 design! I also use a selection of old English chisels and have ground some of these to use as skews. For rare site work I've got a set of traffic light Marples bevel edged chisels which are pretty horrid!

So my vote is for Ashley Iles mk2 chisels!

Regards

David

 

[Alf]

...and I kind of like knowing that one day 100 years from now, there is a good chance that my chisels today will be some lucky persons bargain garage sale find, and they will talk about how great tools were "back in the day"...

Not a chance ! Your chisels will be worthless in 100 years time....as the only wood left will be on/in the trees in your local tree zoo. :mrgreen:

Unless they have wooden handles - which'll presumably make them priceless. :wink:

 

[jimi43]

...and I kind of like knowing that one day 100 years from now, there is a good chance that my chisels today will be some lucky persons bargain garage sale find, and they will talk about how great tools were "back in the day"...

Not a chance ! Your chisels will be worthless in 100 years time....as the only wood left will be on/in the trees in your local tree zoo. :mrgreen:

Unless they have wooden handles - which'll presumably make them priceless. :wink:

I'm passing my ziron-encrusted tweezers down to my grand children for precisely the same reason! :wink: :mrgreen: :deer

Jim

 

[James C]

Right come new year I will be picking up three Ashley Iles in the sizes I need (I did listen Jacob) and then checking ebay/bootsales for Sheffield bargains.

My perfect setup would be to have a number of Sheffield Vintage type chisels for chopping and general use and a the AI's set to a fine degree for perfect paring.

I managed to get the pedestal mounted grinding wheel working in my school, so that problem is solved albeit it temporarily. That should leave some money left over for some other stuff, not sure exactly what yet.

 

[jimi43]

Right come new year I will be picking up three Ashley Iles in the sizes I need (I did listen Jacob) and then checking ebay/bootsales for Sheffield bargains.

My perfect setup would be to have a number of Sheffield Vintage type chisels for chopping and general use and a the AI's set to a fine degree for perfect paring.

I managed to get the pedestal mounted grinding wheel working in my school, so that problem is solved albeit it temporarily. That should leave some money left over for some other stuff, not sure exactly what yet.

Brilliant conclusion!

One thing I would try...get a decent wheel for that manual wheel...it makes all the difference!

Jim

 

[James C]

Actually it's a fully fledged 415V grinding wheel with a coarse grit wheel and medium grit wheel. I was skeptical about getting it up and running for primary bevels as I was worried about getting the hollow grind due to the fact that you sharpen on the outside of the circumference of the wheel.

I've only used these to grind down HSS bar into Lathe cutters for turning MS and Ali, how much is the hollow grinding on a radius going to effect my chisels?