Chipped edges on new planes and do new planes need sharpening before use?

[Phil Pascoe]

I think 44.998 is the superior angle.

Only if the oilstone is hollow.

 

[Peter Sefton]

Thanks for all the support and offers of help for Sebastian.

We have made contact and offered to get the blades and chip breakers collected, checked and reground or replaced if found to be faulty, the other offer is a full refund.

It is very difficult to assess problems over the internet, the issue could be the tools, the timber or the technique but I am confident we will get it resolved to help a fellow woodworker.

Cheers Peter

 

[Trevanion]

I'm not sure you're taking this seriously.

To be fair Mike, I don't take much seriously... but I do take the topic of sharpening to a zealot level and I am right.

 

[MikeG.]

.........We have made contact and offered to get the blades and chip breakers collected, checked and reground or replaced if found to be faulty, the other offer is a full refund.......

Well done Peter.

 

[AJB Temple]

Sebastian, if you are reading this, I hope you can see that members here support each other and that Peter is a decent bloke who is acting honourably. My offer to help you with sharpening and the basics of hand planing still stands. We all need a bit of help now and again. Kind regards, Adrian

 

[Eshmiel]

(Snip) The thing is, I don't use a secondary bevel on a plane, so I simply take my one and only bevel to the same angle that most people hone their little secondary bevel to.

So, when your edge blunts you hone the whole bevel to get the edge sharp again? That must take a while! It would be interesting to read the details of your re-honing and/or resharpening procedure.

Are you familiar with the writings of that Brent Beach, by the way? If so, what pearls concerning his multi-bevel talk can you offer us?

Eshmiel

 

[AJB Temple]

So, when your edge blunts you hone the whole bevel to get the edge sharp again? That must take a while! It would be interesting to read the details of your re-honing and/or resharpening procedure.

Are you familiar with the writings of that Brent Beach, by the way? If so, what pearls concerning his multi-bevel talk can you offer us?

Eshmiel

Actually it makes hardly any difference. Lots of people don't use a secondary bevel, me included for many applications. It is not some kind of mystic necessity: all we need is a sharp edge. I don't know what Mike uses, but I use a linisher. Takes maybe 20 seconds plus a quick hone on a strop or diamond plate.

If you go to Japan and work with the knife sharpeners on carbon steel blades, they don't mess around either. Single bevel knives, (sharpened on side only, hollow the other side) and razor sharp with that single bevel.

Micro bevels protect the primary bevel somewhat, but are not essential and are a waste of time often (eg mortice chisels being belted with a hammer). How many PT blades are sharpened with a primary and secondary bevel?

 

[MikeG.]

So, when your edge blunts you hone the whole bevel to get the edge sharp again? That must take a while! It would be interesting to read the details of your re-honing and/or resharpening procedure.

Yes, that's what I do, and no, it's quick enough. Twelve or 15 strokes on 2 plates.

Are you familiar with the writings of that Brent Beach, by the way? If so, what pearls concerning his multi-bevel talk can you offer us?

I've never heard of him. Why the sarcasm?

 

[Eshmiel]

Actually it makes hardly any difference. Lots of people don't use a secondary bevel, me included for many applications. It is not some kind of mystic necessity: all we need is a sharp edge. I don't know what Mike uses, but I use a linisher. Takes maybe 20 seconds plus a quick hone on a strop or diamond plate.

If you go to Japan and work with the knife sharpeners on carbon steel blades, they don't mess around either. Single bevel knives, (sharpened on side only, hollow the other side) and razor sharp with that single bevel.

Micro bevels protect the primary bevel somewhat, but are not essential and are a waste of time often (eg mortice chisels being belted with a hammer). How many PT blades are sharpened with a primary and secondary bevel?

A small secondary bevel can be made and re-honed in just a few swipes on some fine sharpening medium. To resharpen the same blunt edge on a large single bevel must surely take longer or, if a machine is used for speed, take a lot more metal to get the edge sharp again. Is that not an unavoidable consequence of the geometries involved?

You're right to say that many traditional sharpening techniques treat the whole of a single bevel. But if a micro-bevel offers some advantages (quicker to re-hone; removes less metal; "protects the primary bevel somewhat") then what are the disadvantages that outweigh those advantages? I feel that, sometimes, the reason we use a technique is that it's what we started with, it works well enough for us and we're reluctant to change the familiar for the unfamiliar. Another technique might be just as good or even better (i.e. more efficient in various ways).

No right & wrong, in other words.

Personally I wouldn't go to Brent Beach lengths - but I do see his logic and just choose not to go to his lengths, as the micro-bevelling I do use seems sufficient for sharpness, speed of re-honing and and avoiding my chisel turning to dust as quickly as reforming the whole bevel each time would.

The DW unicorn sharpening method seems worth adopting. My own experiment do seem to provide a slightly sharper-feeling edge (judged from ease of push and sound, rather than with a microscope). I probably don't use a chisel for long enough in any one session to judge if the edge retention has been greatly improved. But the unicorn process is just a 10 second addition to what I already do, so ........

In short: it's right to be wary of fashionable changes in tool techniques and configurations but some changes do prove to be actual improvements at no real cost in time or effort. But perhaps it's "hard" to change a habit, for us humans.

https://brentbeach.ca/Sharpen/index.html
Eshmiel

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Popcorn time.

 

[billw]

Hang on - you aren't supposed to rehone the entire thing you just put a new secondary bevel on? *sigh* I dread to think how many hours I have wasted.

 

[billw]

Oh and I will add a vote to Peter Sefton's tally, I bought something from there that had a minor error in shipping and the resultant customer service was generous, faultless and polite. I put some more business their way as way of thanks, and know I'm in safe hands when I do so again in the future.

 

[maznaz]

I thought the concept of a "sharpening thread" was a bit of a forum joke at first, but I've begun to see the light!

 

[MikeG.]

Hang on - you aren't supposed to rehone the entire thing you just put a new secondary bevel on? *sigh* I dread to think how many hours I have wasted.

Don't take any notice of anyone who says you're supposed to or not supposed to do something. There are multiple ways of doing every single woodworking-related task, and you'll find people who back (vehemently sometimes) each and every one of them. I hone the whole bevel of my plane blade, every time. It works for me. It's quick and easy. It shouldn't be a matter of controversy that some people do things in different ways, and I make no claim to my way being better than the more customary secondary bevel approach. When I free-hand sharpened on an oilstone I used a secondary bevel too. Now, on diamond plates I use a honing guide, and it's absolutely no bother to hone the whole face, and it removes the need for re-grinding. So that's what I choose to do. It's neither wrong nor right...just a choice.

 

[Eshmiel]

Hang on - you aren't supposed to rehone the entire thing you just put a new secondary bevel on? *sigh* I dread to think how many hours I have wasted.

Ha ha - Mr Beach would have us all put three bevels on both sides of a plane blade, otherwise (he said) true sharpness will elude us because of the pesky wear-bevels made by scraping the bottom of the blade edge along the wood as we plane. This requires a rather involved process inclusive of jigs and mathematics. I know no one who actually does it these days.

Perhaps the easiest and most effective traditional method, though, is one that Derek Cohen (amongst others) has adopted. He grinds a hollow main bevel on a grinding wheel then uses the two "lands" created at the edge and at the other end of the bevel to guide a rapid freehand hone of those two lands. This effectively puts a micro-bevel on the edge (and the other side of the bevel) which takes very little time (or further metal) to re-hone and re-sharpen.

That's like reforming the whole bevel except that because it's hollow ground, only very small amounts of metal are taken at the edge and at the top of the bevel - and is easy to freehand as the hollow grind makes it easier to locate the chisel on the sharpening medium by feel. Eventually the lands grow large and the chisel is given a new hollow grind on the wheel.

I believe Derek has also added the unicorn after experimenting hisself and finding value. As I recall, he also mentioned that the unicorning seems to work with higher angle bevels such as 35 degrees, as well as with DW's recommended 20 degrees + a bit in the micro-bevel.

****
Plenty options for sharpening, then. One question, though, is: what kind of work needs the ultimate sharp edge? Carvers do perhaps (for very clean surfaces rather than ones that only need to function well joint-wise). But how sharp do we cupboard and chair makers need for a bit of paring, mortising or final-fitting? Some of the "wood engineering" aesthetic preference would demand very, very sharp perhaps. Myself I don't mind a little bit of "hand of the maker" toolmark. A little bit.

Eshmiel

 

[silz]

Hi guys -- sorry but I've been away on the trip for most of yesterday and i just got the chance to catch up. I think i've seen an email from the place I purchased, I thought that woodriver was a brand more generally available -- didn't want to 'shame' the place I bought them from or anything as I highly doubt it would be their fault to begin with, at the point of writing this I wasn't yet sure that it wasn't my fault which is what I was set on finding.

But to some extent If my blades are crap due to manufacturing quality declining or something, I didn't want to just let it go.

So the consensus seems clear, don't use any planes at all over pine from B&Q or anything like that! I just had some electric-planed offcuts lying around from when I used to buy B&Q pine and wanted to try it on a 'softwood' as i only have some plywood/osb and oak. I intentionally avoided trying it out on the oak (lol right?)

@Peter Sefton Sorry about the angry tone in the email, it was sent at the peak of my frustration. Again -- I do not mean to complain about your company or anything like that, hence why I didn't even name the shop. The whole intention of this thread was to get some advice on what I could possibly be doing wrong, not threatening your reputation to get free ****. If I'm doing something terribly wrong, I'll probably ruin the new blades anyway.

@AJB Temple I literally passed through Tunbridge Wells twice yesterday, if only had I known!

I do have the really heavy 'dining' table as a temporary workbench at this point, but as I'm working on the new table saw bench, the table saw is currently on it so I had to resort to the sawhorses temporarily. One of my next three projects is a proper hardwood workbench, I'm eyeing some combination of Nicholson & Roubo but I'll plan it properly once I get to that point). I will however need to plane & in the absence of a PT, I'll have to do that using the handtools.

---

So since the consensus seems to be that I f***d up and woodriver don't normally chip, I'll first take @Bm101 on his offer as Herts is quite doable for me, as much as I'd love to 'bite' AJB's hand off, getting to Tunbridge wells is a 4+ hours round trip for me.

@Bm101 whereabouts within Herts are you based?

 

[Bm101]

.

@Bm101 whereabouts within Herts are you based?

I'm near Hoddesdon Seb. Might be easier to post them? I've got a book to post to Andy T so I'm heading to the Po next week anyway.

 

[AJB Temple]

@sebg I am also in Cambridge mate and been using hand planes for a few years without any issues if you are still struggling we could arrange for you to visit and we can have a look at your plane, just drop me a PM. I am in central Cambridge just next to the beehive if that helps

Sebastian - you did see the above offer from Bacms I presume. He is actually In Cambridge.

 

[Ttrees]

I have yet to see a timber that can't be planed to a pristine finish with a regular Bailey.

 

[silz]

Oh my bad, i didnt see the message from bacms, used to live near the beehive at some point,

@Bacms whenever you are available i'd me extremely grateful to drop by for a chat! I'm free at any time this weekend as well as today, really appreciate the offer