Cheap planes

[JohnBrown]

Hi,
My local hardware store has this on sale for £19.99, what do you think? Is it worth buying or will it be a piece of cr@p?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Faithfull-N...ef=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=diy&qid=1257440451&sr=1-6

 

[Smudger]

Probably worth it for the handles.
Some people say they have tuned them to be usable, most say it isn't worth the effort.

 

[woodbloke]

What night is tonight?.. :-k ...Bonfire night! - Rob

 

[JoinerySolutions]

The time and effort taken for the presentation box should have been invested in at least one of the planes! Just my opinion but then the last brand new plane I bought from Stanley took several hours of fettling to get it right and that was 12 years ago! :wink:
On another tack what do you want them for? Rob.

 

[matthewwh]

If you are after a cheap but sensible plane and can hold on for a few weeks I may have an alternative for you.

Quangsheng originally designed their planes to a spec supplied by Woodcraft in the USA where they are marketed as wood river planes. They are still a country mile off the sort of standards that we see from Clifton, but they have got the fundamentals right.

I have yet to use one, but I have had copies of the spec sheets from their materials suppliers and photographs of their production processes, all of which strike me as being correct. My only concern so far is their use of water hardening steel for the irons (the chinese equivalent of W1). This varies greatly upon the qualities of the water in which it is hardened, do it in Sheffield (UK), Pittsburgh (USA) or Miki City (Japan) water - lovely jubbly, do it 50 miles away from any of those places and it has the potential to be absolutely diabolical. Believe it or not Ashley Iles (the man not the company) used to drive to Sheffield and import water to Lincolnshire a truckload at a time just to harden his steel in, it really is that important. AI eventually switched over to O1 which has virtually identical properties but can be hardened anywhere in oil. Most of the Sheffield manufacturers now use O1 because it is so consistant and so good, even though they have the right water to harden W1 availabe on tap.

I won't be able to tell until I sharpen it, but as a pre emptive countermeasure I have started buying up English made O1 blades to retro fit if the Chinese made ones are not up to snuff.

I'll keep you posted.

 

[big soft moose]

If you are after a cheap but sensible plane and can hold on for a few weeks I may have an alternative for you.

Quangsheng originally designed their planes to a spec supplied by Woodcraft in the USA where they are marketed as wood river planes. They are still a country mile off the sort of standards that we see from Clifton, but they have got the fundamentals right.

I have yet to use one, but I have had copies of the spec sheets from their materials suppliers and photographs of their production processes, all of which strike me as being correct. My only concern so far is their use of water hardening steel for the irons (the chinese equivalent of W1). This varies greatly upon the qualities of the water in which it is hardened, do it in Sheffield (UK), Pittsburgh (USA) or Miki City (Japan) water - lovely jubbly, do it 50 miles away from any of those places and it has the potential to be absolutely diabolical. Believe it or not Ashley Iles (the man not the company) used to drive to Sheffield and import water to Lincolnshire a truckload at a time just to harden his steel in, it really is that important. AI eventually switched over to O1 which has virtually identical properties but can be hardened anywhere in oil. Most of the Sheffield manufacturers now use O1 because it is so consistant and so good, even though they have the right water to harden W1 availabe on tap.

I won't be able to tell until I sharpen it, but as a pre emptive countermeasure I have started buying up English made O1 blades to retro fit if the Chinese made ones are not up to snuff.

I'll keep you posted.

I saw these on your blog and am awaiting them with baited breath , what no.s are you importing ? - I really need a big plane like a 6 or 7 but theres no way i can afford the clifton/veritas/neisen prices and ive been unable to find an old stanley or record.

 

[matthewwh]

No.6, No.5, No.4, No.3, Low angle block, Low angle rebating block and some 'shaves.

 

[AndyT]

For twenty quid, buy them.

I've got the equivalent Faithful version of the 778 rebate/filister plane, and would judge it to be much better than the bottom of the market chaiwanese stuff you find at Screwfix/Toolstation etc.

You can then also buy the Workshop Heaven higher grade options when they appear!

That way you will have a diy plane - to use on rough or painted wood, or lend to your neighbours and (hopefully) a more responsive precision tool as well.

Andy

 

[Boz62]

To digress slightly, has anyone seen any reviews yet for the new Stanley Sweetheart Shoulder Plane. At £57 (when in stock), it's a lot cheaper than any other shoulder plane I've seen. The only stuff I've seen are press release type previews, not full reviews. Once I've filled that hole in my armory, a No 6 would be nice however

Boz

 

[jlawrence]

I have these exact Faithful planes.
Personally I think they're a decent starting point - no point starting off with good planes (ie LN et al) when I'm likely to trash 'em whilst I'm learning. My #4 isn't square sole->side and I've no idea how to sort that.

Added: I'm looking forward to seeing these chinese ones when Matthew's got them in.

 

[JohnBrown]

For <£20 I think I will buy them. They can't be worse than my rusty Rolson! I'm a firmware writer, I can't justify spending hundreds of pounds just to make see-through wood shavings!

Thanks anyway for all the advice!

John

 

[TobyB]

Worth thinking about ... is the cheap option "upgradeable"?

I was given an old rusty No 4. Tried "fettling" it a bit - rubbed off the worst of the rust from the sole and side with wet and dry on my float glass, sharpened the blade properly, tried to flatten the tip of the chip breaker, etc. NOT impressed by the results ... chatter, tear-out, etc.

Just put some Sheffield into it, by way of a new Clifton blade and chipbreaker. Transformed! Full stroke thick strips without even pushing hard, or wispy translucent shavings and a smooth surface.

If "cheap" planes that don't work too well can be upgraded in this fashion, might well be worth the money?

 

[bugbear]

Worth thinking about ... is the cheap option "upgradeable"?

If "cheap" planes that don't work too well can be upgraded in this fashion, might well be worth the money?

You're still left with poorly shaped handles, poor fit of frog to casting, excess backlash on the adjustments...

The cost of a "full" upgrade is high - if you replace blade, cap-iron and handles, you're getting to the point where a simple new purchase looks sensible.

I would recommend either buying a well-chose second hand plane, and tuning it without replacing anything, or buying a LN/LV/Clifton.

BugBear

 

[TobyB]

Agreed if I was buying and could afford - that's why I've got a Clifton 5 1/2 and a LV BUJ - but I can see that from Johns point of view they, or Matthews suggestions, might be worth a go, having seen the difference £50 of blade/iron made to my plane. I wouldn't buy a Clifton/LN No 4 I don't think - but having been given this plane I've now got a useful tool for very little extra outlay (the handles aren't bad and there's little backlash - it's not like a £20 modern thing from B&Q) ...

 

[jlawrence]

I can see the point in buying the likes of LN et al, but I disagree that it's a good move for someone who is just starting out with hand tools - ie still learning a) how to plane something, and b) how a plane works. That person would be me .

For a modest outlay you get an old plane (or even a cheap new one) and start learning what's what. You then change a few bits and learn what makes the biggest improvements - ie what are the most important parts of the plane. If you buy a 'good' plane straight off then how do you know if it's set up correctly - you don't, you have to rely on the manufacturer setting it up.

 

[frugal]

I can see the point in buying the likes of LN et al, but I disagree that it's a good move for someone who is just starting out with hand tools - ie still learning a) how to plane something, and b) how a plane works. That person would be me .

The only problem with that is you never know if it is your technique that is causing problems or the tool. It was not until I tried David C's plane at Yandles that I realised how badly set up mine was and that I needed to fettle it.

Even now I do not know if the tear out I get is from a poor tool or poor technique.

Of course if you buy an expensive plane you will not initially know if your problems are due to your technique or how you have adjusted the tool. My L/N block plane was a joy to use until I first sharpened it, then my poor sharpening technique caused me problems and the performance of the tool went down, but it was not until I got better at sharpening that I realised.

All of this rambling is just to say: Why should it be an either/or question. The quality of the result will depend (amongst other things) on the build quality of the tool, the way that the tool has been adjusted and the way that the tool is used. You can not target one aspect in isolation, you need to improve on all of them to a certain level (and a certain level of experience) before you can say which one is causing you problems.

This is one of the reasons that learning from more experienced people is often the best way to go.

 

[Charlotte]

Sorry to butt in in a thead, but I'm going to go plane shopping shortly. My budget is car boot due to woeful work situation at the moment.

I want a block plane and a smoother or jack and am wondering about wooden planes, though I have never used them. I've seen check lists for second hand planes but don't own a portable known flat surface and do not fancy wandering around a boot sale with a file of web wisdom anyhow. I was going to opt for the rustiest with the shortest irons on the basis that a short iron=hard life=good tool but would love to hear some other suggestions.

Many thanks

 

[woodbloke]

Sorry to butt in in a thead, but I'm going to go plane shopping shortly. My budget is car boot due to woeful work situation at the moment.

I want a block plane and a smoother or jack and am wondering about wooden planes, though I have never used them. I've seen check lists for second hand planes but don't own a portable known flat surface and do not fancy wandering around a boot sale with a file of web wisdom anyhow. I was going to opt for the rustiest with the shortest irons on the basis that a short iron=hard life=good tool but would love to hear some other suggestions.

Many thanks

Wandering around a car booty is fraught with danger unless you know what you are doing...you might pick up something half decent or a load of tat. Much better to contact Ray Isles (by 'fone :wink: ) here or somewhere like Penny Farthing Tools here in Salisbury. A decent jack or smoother in good condition at PFT (and there are lots of them) can be had for around £25ish depending on usage, block planes are harder to come by. There's an auction on at the moment for a DX60 (which was mine, so I can vouch for it) but that's now probably out of your price bracket - Rob

 

[lurker]

Charlotte,

IMHO Car boot planes & a bit of a fettle are the best deal unless you go to +£150 new level.

Most you see will be Stanley 4 & 4.5s - I'd rarely pay more than £5 for a reasonable one. If you know what you are doing you can pick up jems.
For example a Record SS will look much like a stanley bog standard but are worth 10X the amount. And works 5x as well. one marked record are better than Stanleys (usually)

Woodies are fine - sometimes booters think they are old & rare again £5 would be a max for me.

Try to "see past" the rust for cracks otherwise you can't go far wrong at £5 even if the Sole is unuseable the bits will come in useful.

In my experience a boot sale will yield nothing 4 times out of 5 but the 5th one you will strike gold.

 

[Vann]

...If you buy a 'good' plane straight off then how do you know if it's set up correctly - you don't, you have to rely on the manufacturer setting it up.

I don't think this argument holds water !!

If you're going to struggle with the minor amount of fettling/setting-up required on a LV/LN/Clifton, how the heck are you going to manage all the fettling required on a cheap plane?

In my case, I bought a new Stanley in 1973 and could never master it. I thought it was just me (I still have it in it's original box in the garage - almost unused). Last year I splashed out on a LV LAJ. Boy what a revelation :shock: I can plane !!!

Cheers, Vann.