British Woodworking - Issue No.5

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Hi Dan,

Working without detailed plans; just using photographs, a few sketches and basic dimensions? Doesn't sound very professional to me.

I am sure you'll tell me it takes a professional to be able to work that way, someone with knowledge and imagination.

I agree, but even though your original ideas might begin like that, I'd imagine you sit down and draw out the job and/or make mock-ups. In other words you 'work out how to make it' without all the mistakes that go along with the 'gypsy' rule of thumb approach.

And yes, a Wadkin 'anything' (The best) will outlast an Axminster Special.

On the box the other night I heard Stoke referred to as 'Up North'.
Well Stoke is 'up North' to Brum I suppose, but it isn't what I would call 'the North!' How about thee lad; how North is North?

And don't worry... Midlanders can be frank and forthright. Another reason I never got very far up the tree and decided to work for myself.

Regards and take care Dan

John :D :D :eek:ccasion5:
 
Dan Tovey":c6vz7lwh said:
I've not seen a copy of BW yet but until recently suscribed to F&C.

woodbloke":c6vz7lwh said:
F&C has always been pitched at the professional end of the spectrum and the machinery reviews reflect that position as well as the other general content of the mag.

My gripe with F&C was that it is not geared enough towards the professional. It is published by the Guild of Master Craftsmen so presumably it's primary target market is members of that organisation - ie professionals.

However, far too much of the content IMHO is pitched at the hobby woodworker. For instance, detailed plans of a project are of little interest to a professional cabinetmaker. Our daily work entails taking a sketch of a design or a photo from a magazine and working out how to make it. What we need from the 'projects' section of a magazine is good design ideas and tips towards innovative construction processes - not complete plans!

I also get a bit fed up with the choice of machines and tools which are reviewed. I understand the financial imperative and that commercial pressures influence this choice, but it is annoying to see yet another road test of an identical-looking combination machine every month, or a Chiwanese cloned planer-thicknesser.

The truth is that most professional woodworkers have a workshop full of 40 year old+ lumps of cast iron! A Jet planer thicknesser is just not of any interest to a pro guy; he would prefer a nice old Whitehead or Wadkin for half the price and which is going to do a better job for ten times as long! So why no articles on old iron? I think I know the answer. :lol:

There are also many aspects of the cabinetmaker's business that could be covered by a magazine truly catering for members of the trade, such as marketing, costing, dealing with difficult clients,etc etc. Unfortunately, F&C isn't that magazine.

Incidentally, welcome to the forum, Lataxe.

I don't find you rude or abrasive, just a blunt northerner. These southern nancy-boys can be a bit precious! :lol:

I have every issue of F&C and many of the points you raise were indeed covered by F&C in much earlier editions so it may well be time to redo some of them. For instance 'Cast in the Past' was a look each month at a particular bit of greenery :) and the first editor Paul Richardson did a really excellent series very early on the business approach to cabinetmaking which I found very revealing. Like you say there are too many reviews sometimes (not always) of expensive kit which does get very monotonous each month. The new editor though is gradually gearing the magazine more towards the hobby end...hence there may well be less of these sorts of professional equipment tests - Rob
 
Mornin' John,

Benchwayze":2w237xrv said:
Hi Dan,

Working without detailed plans; just using photographs, a few sketches and basic dimensions? Doesn't sound very professional to me.

I wasn't suggesting that one shouldn't work with plans, just that one wouldn't want to follow someone else's!

Benchwayze":2w237xrv said:
I am sure you'll tell me it takes a professional to be able to work that way, someone with knowledge and imagination.

I agree, but even though your original ideas might begin like that, I'd imagine you sit down and draw out the job and/or make mock-ups. In ther words you 'work out how to make it' without all the mistakes that go along with the 'gypsy' rule of thumb approach.

Horses for courses. If it's a bog standard cabinet of a construction I've done a hundred times before I won't bother going beyond the sketch on a back of an envelope stage; if it's something more complex or made in a way I haven't tackled before, I'll draw it out to help my thinking process. 95% of jobs fall into the fomer camp, though.


Benchwayze":2w237xrv said:
On the box the other night I heard Stoke referred to as 'Up North'.
Well Stoke is 'up North' to Brum I suppose, but it isn't what I would call 'the North!' How about thee lad; how North is North?

The north starts at Macclesfield.

Benchwayze":2w237xrv said:
And don't worry... Midlanders can be frank and forthright. Another reason I never got very far up the tree and decided to work for myself.

You're not a mate of Alan Wakefield's, are you? :lol:

Cheers
Dan

:eek:ccasion5:
 
Dan Tovey":3dckpvmv said:
The north starts at Macclesfield.

AFAIC The north starts at Holloway Road.... ;)
 
Hi Dan,
Alan Wakefield? Hmmm... Can't attach the name, but I hope I'm a mate of yours!

And Wakefield really is 'Oop North'.. I know.. I've been there.

I needed all my skills to find the place mind.

:D :D :D

:eek:ccasion5:

Best.
John
 
map.jpg


Tho I'm certainly not an Arsenal fan :roll:
 
Hi John,

'Course you're my mate! :eek:ccasion5:


Alan Wakefield is a brummy cabinetmaker who caused a bit of a stir on here a few months ago under the name of 'Bespoke'.

Rumour has it that he's now causing a similar stir on WWUK under the name 'Village *****'. I can't verify this however, as I'm banned! 8)

Despite my northern heritage, am an honorary brummy, having been born in Loveday Street hospital many years ago!

Cheers
Dan
 
Nice to know that Dan. Thanks.

As for AW and the 'rumble' I heard summat about it, after the posts had been deleted, so I'll not enquire further!

Sad to say your birthplace is no longer there Dan. I do remember the place. Also, as Birmingham is where you were born, the law says you are in fact a Brummie and an honorary Northerner mate! In fact you are more of a Brummie than me. I was born in Border Country in Kingstanding. (When it was a new suburb, I hasten to add!) About six miles from the City Centre! A 'Midland Red' Brum'. So there! Lol!

I'm off to hang some of my pictures in an exhibition. I might make enough money to buy that Lie Nielsen 'Carriage Maker's 'Rabbet' plane!
Catch you in a while.

Regards
John
:eek:ccasion5:
 
Steve Maskery":aaoxnse2 said:
OK, I'm off now to slash my wrists.
Steve

Hi Steve - I hope you will use a Festool knife!

On a more serious point, for me Nick has got the balance about right, a good mix between the inspirational and the practical. I just hope he does not get distracted by the his new Living Woods magazine venture.

John
 
Mr Maskery,

Agin’ my better judgement I make another post in this thread. I suppose I owe you an explanation so feel I must. (You won’t like it). :)

You mention:
3 There is one very easy way for you to get the magazine you want. Write it.

You cannot wriggle out from criticism by huffing that the customer should do it himself. The point is that you charge me for a product (the magazine). If I find the product inadequate or want to describe how it fails to meet my need then this is just the usual seller-customer convention. You are confusing me with a friend who is merely considering your letter or blog describing what you have been up to. In fact, the relationship is a commercial one.

Then you ask:
1. Where, exactly, is the poor English? The question has been asked earlier in the thread, and yet no substantiation has been offered.

I posted these two comments:

* The writing style is woefully amateurish, with poor syntax and sudden lurches from one thing to another. Everything is both hard to read and very sparse in hard information. There is too much "look at my chatty personality", which is OK for forums but not for good quality magazine articles. The worst aspect is the inability to explain things, which are blithely skimmed over. The author knows what he means therefore so should we, seems to be the attitude - all too common in British WW publications.

“ .. for a model of what I see as the ideal WW article style, read Fine Woodworking. The pictures tell a story and aren't just dressing. The words are frugal, to-the-point and unambiguous, without imposing the personality of the writer. The subject matter ranges from first principles to fantastique! Compare this to the "I did this then I did that" plodding of most British magazine articles.

I am trying to say that the style of writing you use is an inappropriate variety of “stream of consciousness” style.

* It’s narrative story, with loads of spurious detail (“I buy Swedish redwood unsorted and rough sawn…”; “I started by machining up the boards…” and similar take-as-read steps). You seem to have made little attempt to separate what is important in understanding the process of constructing the piece from what is just basic woodworking procedure. There is too much of your general woodworking habits and not enough information specific to the nature of the piece.

* Then there is unexplained jargon (“I modelled it in Sketch up and then copied the drawings onto a piece of MFC to make a full sized rod”). I can guess you mean something like MDF or hard board but what is MFC? I presume (don’t know) that by “rod” you mean a story stick or some form of pattern? In either case, where is the description or photo showing how you copy from sketch up via a drawing to whatever the rod is? We must either know about these strange terms and processes already or make wild guesses. What if we are not sketchup users? You describe no alternative approach.

* Then there is the constant mention of jigs, with no explanation of their use nor any discernible photos. Either stick to a basic jig-free method (much better for those who prefer making furniture to jigs) or describe/reference information sufficient to make and use the jig.

* The photos accompanying the text are largely spurious as they are pictures of you stood next to a tool rather than an illustrative explanation of the important configurations for various aspects of the process. The diagrams are basic and fail to show the construction details.

On a more positive note I do offer you a model to consider for writing how-to WW articles (almost any Fine Woodworking article or Taunton Press book for that matter; also, early F&CM articles from the first 5 years).

My fundamental criticism is that you seem to be writing a story but the subject matter requires a different style, one appropriate to technical information. It needs to describe each significant process stage in bald terms, with decoding of any technical jargon. The illustrations must inform, not be mere portraits of the author or pictures of his shed. There should either be no need to ask a large list of questions (which cannot be answered as magazine pages are dumb) or a list of additional info panels or references to other technical bits that are quoted (such as the definition/picture of a rod or a jig).

Of course, your style of writing is the norm for every domestic WW magazine. But this is why I don’t buy any of them on a regular basis. Naturally, if your market research shows a preference for this style you will stick with it. But I somehow doubt that you actually do such research, as this narrative-ramble tradition of writing is everywhere and if anything is getting worse. You are all taking cues from each other and listening only to the odd sycophantic letter writer.

Hopefully you will take this carping as it’s meant – not something personal (after all, I know nothing of you the person) but as simply the reasons I don’t buy the magazine and hence your articles. You can either shrug it off as not relevant; or consider it and perhaps refine your style if you are convinced by any of the arguments. It ain’t a matter of right and wrong, that knows!

Finally, you complain:
2. I think few people, here or anywhere else, would enjoy hearing their work described as "dross"…… If you are going to be critical, please, at least, make that criticism constructive. Otherwise, those of us who sweat blood to write feel as if we are wasting our time. Fortunately I have enough positive feedback to realize that not everyone feels as disappointed as Mr Lataxe.

I said: “The furniture-making articles are mostly (and sadly) of the "simple pine stuff" standard. As to the thing to hold a ball of string! This so encourages low standards and feeble ambitions. And what of that half-finished article about a book cover!? Just as well, I suppose, as I'd rather darn a sock”.

I didn’t describe your work as dross although there is plenty in domestic WW magazines that I would so-describe. You yourself are in danger of “going dross” if you think rather bland pine stuff (that can be bought for less than you paid for the wood from any number of bog-standard pine shops) is somehow inspirational enough to encourage woodworkers reading the article. Sure, you will get weekend woodworkers (not a pejorative term) and folk with lesser ambition praising your article. They want easy and bland perhaps; and good luck to them. But I suspect, looking at all them Festools in your shed, that your personal standards may be rather higher. Perhaps you are making that endemic assumption that amateur or hobby woodworkers are by definition not very good and incapable of better than bland-pine style. If so, I think you’re dead wrong.

That comment you made along the lines of: I bodged it here and there but it was OK for the wife if not a real customer, speaks volumes though.

Lataxe, a demanding little pest.
 
Oh, and another thing about F&C...

...what's with that Kevin Ley, the bloke with the eye patch?

Month after month he's there pontificating and showing us in minute detail how he built his godawful-looking furniture!

He claims to be a pro maker, but on the internet he is almost invisible; no website, no directory links etc. It is actually very difficult to be in business and have that low a profile!

Am I being cynical in suspecting that he actually just plays at it while living on a fat RAF pension and earning pin money from writing books and articles?

Dan
- in a very grumpy mood today!

:)


Edit - not as grumpy as Lataxe though, who's post above just beat mine to the thread!

Hope you feel better with that load off your chest, mate!

:lol:
 
Lataxe - you aren't a 'demanding little pest' you are a gobby stirrer.
Might be nice if you observed how this forum tends to work and followed suit rather than try to make it fit your self-opinionated mould.

I must say that I am not the least bit interested in reading your self-justification, and I think it says volumes about your ego that you think that anyone might.

You don't like it - OK, who cares? I don't...
 
Now you come to mention it Lataxe, I read 'Hello' magazine in the dentists waiting room the other day. I found it wasn't to my taste. Perhaps I should write a rude and arrogant letter to the editor?

Oh yeah, thats right. I don't like Hello magazine, so I don't buy it!.
 
WiZeR":32kodx4m said:
Dan Tovey":32kodx4m said:
The north starts at Macclesfield.

AFAIC The north starts at Holloway Road.... ;)

Surely it starts at the other side of the Thames? I mean, that's why it's there isn't it? :lol:
 
Slim":15j2pnbl said:
Now you come to mention it Lataxe, I read 'Hello' magazine in the dentists waiting room the other day. I found it wasn't to my taste. Perhaps I should write a rude and arrogant letter to the editor?

Oh yeah, thats right. I don't like Hello magazine, so I don't buy it!.

I bought a packet of Hobnobs yesterday. I had to throw them away today though. Can't stand the bloody things. :lol:
 
Having read Lataxe's comments about Steve Maskery's article, I'm tempted to buy the magazine and see if it really is that good. I like articles which allow the author's character to come through, leavening potentially flat narrative. I used to like the John Brown column in GWW many years ago for that very reason. What I don't want from a magazine is a read that is as inspirational as a set of flat pack instructions.

Oh, and I like Kevin Ley's stuff too. Criticising him for having a military pension smacks of jealousy to me. If he can make himself financially secure at a relatively youthful age and pursue his interests without needing to chase the dollar, I wish him well and congratulate him on his achievement. He's not the only contributor to magazines who has another income source, although most try to keep those details private.

Gill
 
Lataxe":2r13wouf said:
Then there is unexplained jargon (“I modelled it in Sketch up and then copied the drawings onto a piece of MFC to make a full sized rod”). I can guess you mean something like MDF or hard board but what is MFC? I presume (don’t know) that by “rod” you mean a story stick or some form of pattern? In either case, where is the description or photo showing how you copy from sketch up via a drawing to whatever the rod is? We must either know about these strange terms and processes already or make wild guesses. What if we are not sketchup users? You describe no alternative approach.

I find it amazing, if you are as talented and experienced as you make out, that you don't know what a rod or MFC (Melamine Faced Chipboard) is. Why should Steve describe an alternative approach to Sketchup? That is what he uses. That is what British Woodworking uses. It can only be a good thing to encourage people to try out their design ideas in such an easy to use program.

Lataxe":2r13wouf said:
Then there is the constant mention of jigs, with no explanation of their use nor any discernible photos. Either stick to a basic jig-free method (much better for those who prefer making furniture to jigs) or describe/reference information sufficient to make and use the jig.

This is your opinion. I think you will find that the vast majority of woodworkers use jigs, whether home made or bought. As far as I can see, there a four photographs of the jigs Steve uses. Would you prefer fewer words and more pictures? Perhaps this would suit you...

Lataxe":2r13wouf said:
My fundamental criticism is that you seem to be writing a story but the subject matter requires a different style, one appropriate to technical information. It needs to describe each significant process stage in bald terms, with decoding of any technical jargon. The illustrations must inform, not be mere portraits of the author or pictures of his shed. There should either be no need to ask a large list of questions (which cannot be answered as magazine pages are dumb) or a list of additional info panels or references to other technical bits that are quoted (such as the definition/picture of a rod or a jig).

Again, this is your opinion, not fact. Why should a magazine be a simple 'how to'? Why not get to know the author, or read about his thought processes? Each picture has a caption, which explains what is going on.

Lataxe":2r13wouf said:
Hopefully you will take this carping as it’s meant – not something personal (after all, I know nothing of you the person) but as simply the reasons I don’t buy the magazine and hence your articles. You can either shrug it off as not relevant; or consider it and perhaps refine your style if you are convinced by any of the arguments. It ain’t a matter of right and wrong, that knows!

Not personal? Do you think by saying it isn't personal, then that makes it so? Perhaps if you expressed your views in a respectful and less arrogant manner, we may have considered them. You have a lot to learn about being tactful.

Lataxe":2r13wouf said:
I didn’t describe your work as dross although there is plenty in domestic WW magazines that I would so-describe.

Oh yes you did - "although I don't know what Garret Hack is doing amongst the British woodworkers, despite his excellent stuff - a contrast to that pine dross"

Lataxe":2r13wouf said:
You yourself are in danger of “going dross” if you think rather bland pine stuff (that can be bought for less than you paid for the wood from any number of bog-standard pine shops) is somehow inspirational enough to encourage woodworkers reading the article. Sure, you will get weekend woodworkers (not a pejorative term) and folk with lesser ambition praising your article. They want easy and bland perhaps; and good luck to them. But I suspect, looking at all them Festools in your shed, that your personal standards may be rather higher. Perhaps you are making that endemic assumption that amateur or hobby woodworkers are by definition not very good and incapable of better than bland-pine style. If so, I think you’re dead wrong."

I think you will find that they are trying to cater for various skill levels.

Maybe you should email Nick and ask him to publish a magazine just for you. :roll:

Lataxe":2r13wouf said:
, a demanding little pest.

I wouldn't put it that politely.
 
**** & Simon,

Don't worry, my dears. I am off back to a real forum where there are no thought police, monitors of uncomfortable emotions and over-sensitive harrumphers. You can go back to discussing the price of tea with the vicar and how nice the flower garden looks this week. :) I prefer to talk to grown ups about often contentious matters. Strangely, this often leads to a better understanding, changed minds and increased abilities. Still, no need for those if you are just making a birdhouse, I suppose.

However, I do hope that British Woodworking will get better. I would like to buy a quality Britsh WW magazine. You seem to have missed my point that I DON'T buy BWW because it has (in my opinion) low standards that could easily be better. It's for lads like you, I suppose.

Who knows, perhaps the editor and writers might at least take another look at their production values rather than merely sopping up the sycophancy from such as you lads? It's no bad thing to question yourself from time to time, rather than look for only praise and congratulate yourself on what a good job you done - especially if you are a publication wishing to both sell more copies and serve wider needs than those of birdhouse makers. I wouldn't expect them to agree with all of my "ideals" for a magazine, since I'm not the only potential reader - maybe not even typical. I merely offer them a different perspective from that of the breathless fanboy.

Tarra.

Lataxe, a pariah.
 
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