Brace & Ledged Door - or Panelled Door.

[Benchwayze]

You're welcome Dibs...

I'm sure the drawings and text will help, and together with the books you bought you shouldn't go far wrong.

Best of luck and enjoy the reading!

Regards
John

 

[Dibs-h]

One question I do have is that I've seen frame\panelled doors in the past with wedged tennons visible in the stiles, but I've seen references (old ones admitedly) where it stated the 1st class work only has the tennons go 2/3's of the depth into the stiles. Is it down to personal preference? Or should one not have wedged tennons in an external door?

Also for an external door - If the door was 50mm thick (i.e. the rails & stiles were 50mm thick) how much thinner should the panels be? Assuming the design was like the one in the picture. Also I've seen mentions that the bottom rail should be twice the depth of the top rail?

Assuming the panel was thinner than the rail\stile (i.e. inset in a bit) - I've seen doors where there is no beading at this junction - is that a bad idea? From a point of water ingress.

 

[Benchwayze]

Hi Dibs,

Through-tenons or blind.

Blind tenons suffer less from water ingress, and with modern exterior grades of glue you shouldn't have a problem.

The through mortice is less prone to racking, and again, waterproof glues are a good bet. Along with proper wedging they should hold out well, but you will need to treat the exposed eges routinely. (Paint or varnish etc.)

I'd use blind tenons, going as deep as practically possible.

I like Cascamite for outside use, although I believe they now call it by another name. I still have plenty, so not having had to buy any, the new name escapes me! BTW, before the days of good waterproof woodwork glues they used paint as an adhesive for outside applications.

If you know the direction of the prevailing winds, it helps of course. Fit a drip-rail above and right across the doorway.

Regards
John

 

[Dibs-h]

Fit a drip-rail above and right across the doorway.

Regards
John

Sorry I'm having a senior moment! Do you mean a "weather" bar at the base of the door? Above - non comprende senior!

 

[Benchwayze]

My Senior Moments are always Intellectual Intermissions.

I'm referring to a piece of 4 x 1 above the door. The back edge angled slightly so the board slopes downwards. With a groove worked in the underside at the front, as per a window-ledge. It shoots the rain away from the door. The name of it seems to have escaped me.

Dont often see them these days due to plastic doorframes and so on.

Regards John

 

[Dibs-h]

My Senior Moments are always Intellectual Intermissions.

I'm referring to a piece of 4 x 1 above the door. The back edge angled slightly so the board slopes downwards. With a groove worked in the underside at the front, as per a window-ledge. It shoots the rain away from the door. The name of it seems to have escaped me.

Dont often see them these days due to plastic doorframes and so on.

Regards John

I know what you mean - you tend to see them on old houses that have possibly an original door (early 20c). IIRC they are part of the door casing\frame and not part of the door?

 

[Mattty]

Have you decided what your doing yet or are you gonna keep changing your mind :lol:
I would personally use wedged through tenons on external doors. Probably because that is how i was taught. I don't think i've ever seen a door rot from an exposed tenon end, it's always been in the internal corner of the joint that i've seen any failure.
Your welcome to pop over and use my morticer if it helps dibs. I would certainly advise it if i was making 3 oak doors.

 

[Benchwayze]

Dibs,

Whilst I have to make do with a single garage as a shop, I do have room for a decent sized building in the garden. ( If SWIMBO would agree of course!) I have the space, so I would build a small 'storm-porch' around the door. Like you see occasionally when folk tart up the front of their houses. I'd clad it with shingles, like the roof. I'd be happy then.


Mind you, the advantage of using the integral garage is that I can pull the car right up to the up-and-over door. So that's a built-in alarm system!
8)

John

 

[Dibs-h]

Have you decided what your doing yet or are you gonna keep changing your mind :lol:
I would personally use wedged through tenons on external doors. Probably because that is how i was taught. I don't think i've ever seen a door rot from an exposed tenon end, it's always been in the internal corner of the joint that i've seen any failure.
Your welcome to pop over and use my morticer if it helps dibs. I would certainly advise it if i was making 3 oak doors.

We are going with something very similar to the door I posted in the piccy. The only slight "tweak" is that as it's my 1st door - I'm not going to risk several 100 £ of oak - it's going to be softwood.

To be honest - so are the casement windows. Now that's where a domino comes in handy. :wink:

It's only an outhouse - so a lick of good paint in an Edwardian colour and sorted. The front\side house doors and the ones on the front of the garage - they'll be the same design (derivative) and as thye'll be visible, will be in hardwood (oak).

Leaving for work this am - I was looking at my morticer - it's a Record RPM 75 (never used it but bought it ages ago as it was cheap) - will have to look to see what the depth of cut on that is. I suspect the styles will be no more than 6" wide. Just woken up and realised if the depth isn't enough I can always turn the timber over and come in from the other side.

Mattty - many thanks for the offer, all else fails I'll be nipping over with a car full of timber.

p.s. I did seriously think of making the door with dominoes! Also as the door will need proper trimming, etc - that justifies the TS55 I bought and the rails I'm about to buy. :wink:

 

[Benchwayze]

Just woken up and realised if the depth isn't enough I can always turn the timber over and come in from the other side.

Like you could cut 1/2" wide mortices by making double cuts with a 1/4" hollow chisel! That was one of my 'Ah-Hahh' moments

So, I know the feeling Dibs.

EDIT:

Matty,
You are right about through M&T's. Come to think, they are usually the way to go.

I made my rear garden gate as a framed, panelled door, from Cedar. I used 'slip-tenons' for the frame itself, and cut blind mortices, with the router and a 1/2" upcut bit. Apart from the fact it needs some more linseed this year, it's as good as ever! But of course, it's cedar-wood!

(Need to do that little job with the linseed, so I must get the door on the trestles.)


Best of luck...
John

 

[Dibs-h]

Right - been pondering on this door. The opening in the blockwork is 1300 wide and around 2100 tall - so it'a large door.

Now assuming it's very similar to the one in the picture below

Like - but only 1 of them!

The sorts of dimensions I'm thinking of is 6" wide stiles, 6" top rail (could be 5"), with a 12" bottom rail (could be 10"). 3 fielded panels with 2 muntins (each approx 5" wide) - does that sound reasonable or make for a weedy looking door?

Now the panels - not glued in I take it? Also is 1/2" a reasonable depth for the slot in the rails\muntins\stiles for the panel? M&T - that's not really an issue, I think I've already done enough for a lifetime, what with the trusses. :shock:

Now the mid rail looks a sort of in between the top rail and the base rail - so assuming 6" top and 10" bottom, then say 8" mid rail?

Now the panels have that "raised" look - I'm seen numerous router bits that give that look. Good idea or bad idea? Also assuming the "frame" was 44mm thick what is the recomendation for the thickness of the panels - assuming they were not "raised" or whatever the terminolgy is?

Door frame - I've seen hardwood sections 55x70 with a 15x"door thickness" rebate. Right sort of ballpark?

Many Thanks.

Dibs.

 

[OPJ]

Structurally, I don't think your stiles would need to be 6in. wide. I used to make framed garden gates where the stiles were only 4in. and we never had any trouble unless you went beyond 2.4m in length.

Well, saying that, our gates were of a different construction - stiles were rebated and rails machined to half-thickness so that the gate could be clad with T&G boarding. And, they were cut from 3in. thick pine. No need to go more than 2.in (45mm finish) on a workshop door, though.

Then, you could have an 8in. bottom rail, maybe 6in. in the middle with 5in. on top... Something like that.

No, don't glue the panels in! If they're solid wood, allow plenty of room for expansion either side - as it's pine which is prone to movement, you may want as much as 6mm. I don't think the thickness needs to be more than one-third your rail thickness, provided it's cut centrally. It would also line up nicely with your mortises. :wink:

 

[Mattty]

That's all in the right pall park, but i think the door section are bigger than i would use-
5" stiles and top rail
10" mid and bottom rail.
1" or 1 1/2" thick panel's.
The rebate for panels is normall 1/2 "
The muntins i would make 4" max

Make sure you twin tenon the mid and bottom rail.

The door frame rebate again half inch. If you do go much bigger you will have to get deeper locks 3" not 2 1/2" otherwise the door handle is likely to strike the rebate.

Cheers,
Matt

 

[Dibs-h]

That's all in the right pall park, but i think the door section are bigger than i would use-
5" stiles and top rail
10" mid and bottom rail.
1" or 1 1/2" thick panel's.
The rebate for panels is normall 1/2 "
The muntins i would make 4" max

Make sure you twin tenon the mid and bottom rail.

The door frame rebate again half inch. If you do go much bigger you will have to get deeper locks 3" not 2 1/2" otherwise the door handle is likely to strike the rebate.

Cheers,
Matt

Cheers Chaps - the info is much apprciated.

Matt - I "supersized" the widths slightly as the door is 4' wide - so kinda wanted it to be in proportion, if that makes any sense. I didn't want it to look like a door that had just been made wider - but look right.

Mid and Bottom rails - yes double tennon, with the mid rail having tennons at top and bottom & gap in the middle. The bottom rail having the haunch towards the bottom of the door if that makes sense.

The diagram below probably shows it better,

 

[Mattty]

Joints wise you got it sorted. Sorry mate, i'm teaching you to suck eggs.

I realise it's a bigger door and i know what you mean about the proportions. I still think the sizes i quoted would be fine. It's gonna be one heavy door whatever sections you decide, that is a certainty.

 

[Dibs-h]

Joints wise you got it sorted. Sorry mate, i'm teaching you to suck eggs.

I realise it's a bigger door and i know what you mean about the proportions. I still think the sizes i quoted would be fine. It's gonna be one heavy door whatever sections you decide, that is a certainty.

Don't be sorry - better safe than sorry. If anything it's validation that I'm not p*ssing in the wind. :wink:

Actually had a stonking idea - some of the walls upstairs are to be painted (sometime). Gonna spend 5mins and draw them out full size and see which one I fancy. :lol:

You're right - it's going to be heavy whatever I do. Having seen JonnyD's thread about double doors - realised that those french doors he made were the same width. But somehow french doors wouldn't like right on the 'shop.

Any recommendations on hinges - initial thoughts would be for ones with ball\needle bearings, not to mention super strong and preferably s\s.

If you look at the picture a few posts up - any idea if that sort of hardware is available in the UK.

 

[Mattty]

I was thinking about your door, but as i'd already made so many suggestion i didn't want to suggest french doors.

If it was mine i think i would do either a pair of the same width or possibly a big and a little. I wouldn't be making them either, i'd be using external fire door blanks (£20ish from Howdens) and tart it up if i wanted something prettier- Ie apply thin boards to make it look pannelled etc.
So much quicker, it will give you a very good solid door for security purposes and be cheaper than buying the timber.

Hinges- Yes SS ball bearing jobs, hinge bolts, 2no 5 lever locks and 240v wired to the door handle :lol:

 

[Dibs-h]

I was thinking about your door, but as i'd already made so many suggestion i didn't want to suggest french doors.

If it was mine i think i would do either a pair of the same width or possibly a big and a little. I wouldn't be making them either, i'd be using external fire door blanks (£20ish from Howdens) and tart it up if i wanted something prettier- Ie apply thin boards to make it look pannelled etc.
So much quicker, it will give you a very good solid door for security purposes and be cheaper than buying the timber.

Hinges- Yes SS ball bearing jobs, hinge bolts, 2no 5 lever locks and 240v wired to the door handle :lol:

Suggestions are all good - be a bummer to make a door and then hear your suggestions and go "I wish I'd made that instead!"

Hmm... plenty to have a think about this evening over a sheesha and the latest edition of FWW that dropped thru the door this am.

 

[Mattty]

I was thinking about your door, but as i'd already made so many suggestion i didn't want to suggest french doors.

If it was mine i think i would do either a pair of the same width or possibly a big and a little. I wouldn't be making them either, i'd be using external fire door blanks (£20ish from Howdens) and tart it up if i wanted something prettier- Ie apply thin boards to make it look pannelled etc.
So much quicker, it will give you a very good solid door for security purposes and be cheaper than buying the timber.

Hinges- Yes SS ball bearing jobs, hinge bolts, 2no 5 lever locks and 240v wired to the door handle :lol:

Suggestions are all good - be a bummer to make a door and then hear your suggestions and go "I wish I'd made that instead!"

Hmm... plenty to have a think about this evening over a sheesha and the latest edition of FWW that dropped thru the door this am.

http://www.grailtrail.ndo.co.uk/Grails/sheesha.html ?

 

[Dibs-h]

http://www.grailtrail.ndo.co.uk/Grails/sheesha.html ?

:-$