Any gas heating engineers on the forum? Advice needed.

[ey_tony]

Hi guys, last week my gas boiler finally gave up the ghost after 27 years of service. The boiler an IDEAL Classic RS250.
I called someone out today to give me a price and a more or less 'modern like for like swap was quoted as £2900.00 for the swap (equivalent modern Ideal boiler) including Hive smart thermostat.
The brickwork around the new small diameter flue will need doing but other than that it's virtually a straight swap. The house is a compact 4 bed detached just over 25 years old.
To be honest I haven't a clue with regard to pricing these days so if there are any heating engineers reading this, is this a fair price?

 

[Spectric]

Get more quotes and also make sure the price includes a system flush and a filter is included as you may not have one on the old system. Also the new boiler will be a condensing type and require a condensate pipe to a drain which will all be new so a little more work. So get more quotes and make sure they are listing what that entails so you have no surprises and can do fair comparisons between the quotes.

 

[ey_tony]

Get more quotes and also make sure the price includes a system flush and a filter is included as you may not have one on the old system. Also the new boiler will be a condensing type and require a condensate pipe to a drain which will all be new so a little more work. So get more quotes and make sure they are listing what that entails so you have no surprises and can do fair comparisons between the quotes.

Thanks Spectric...will do that.

 

[Ed209]

Is it definitely beyond repair?

 

[Bingy man]

My experience of ideal classics is they were good system boilers , cast iron heat exchanger etc but they were prone to condensation and rotted from the inside to out - parts are limited and expensive so new boiler is the best solution. As per @Spectric system flush. and filter is essential. And get several quotes insist on a valiant or Worcester Bosch as imo these are the best . Usually the cheaper the quote the cheaper the cheaper boilers will be fitted ( ferrolli biasi etc ) also they tend to just drain fit new boiler and fill up and Fxxk off leaving your new boiler to circulate old , sludged and contaminated water through equally sludged radiators. Try this - apply a magnet to any copper pipe in the airing cupboard and if it is attracted to the pipe then the pipe contains sludge ( iron oxide ) hope this helps ..

 

[Pedronicus]

It would be helpful to know what symptoms/fault caused the Classic to 'give up the ghost'.

 

[Duncan A]

Typically, around here (Northampton) quotes are £3.5k to £4k, but that would be for a Vaillant or Worcester Bosch and include a flush, fitment of magnetic filter and the aforementioned condensate drain.
If replacing a standard boiler with a combi, there may well be additional costs such as removal of the hot water cylinder and fixing any leaks in the now - pressurised hot water pipework

 

[Spectric]

If replacing a standard boiler with a combi,

If you have a system boiler with hot water tank then keep that system, combi's are not as efficient and can have higher maintenance cost over there lifetime but some might try and push you down that route, either way modern boilers will be hard pushed to give 27 years of service.

 

[Sideways]

If you are having new components fitted, radiators, boiler, whatever, a good flush out should come first.

To make the point, this is what I found flushing my own.
I did this myself by feeding mains water into the filling loop and opening and closing radiator valves etc around the house to concentrate the flow through different pipes.
It's a poor man's DIY flush after running the system with cleaning additive in for a few weeks and before fitting some nice new vertical radiators.

A magnetic filter is an absolute must for your central heating. I mismanged my own CH for a while some years ago and the price was a long run of 15mm plastic pipe that totally blocked with black magnetite flakes. I had to replace the pipe run and I've been much more dilligent about it since then including fitting a filter.

I ran many buckets of water through our system until it came out clear. You have to be careful with the taps so that you never leave main pressure water pushing into the system unless there's an open tap for it to get out of. That way pressure doesn't build up.

The pump is just to empty the plasterers bucket. When full it's too heavy to carry to the drain and pour out.

Your boiler fitters should do this with a machine made for the job.

 

[johnb80]

Hi guys, last week my gas boiler finally gave up the ghost after 27 years of service. The boiler an IDEAL Classic RS250.
I called someone out today to give me a price and a more or less 'modern like for like swap was quoted as £2900.00 for the swap (equivalent modern Ideal boiler) including Hive smart thermostat.
The brickwork around the new small diameter flue will need doing but other than that it's virtually a straight swap. The house is a compact 4 bed detached just over 25 years old.
To be honest I haven't a clue with regard to pricing these days so if there are any heating engineers reading this, is this a fair price?

Take the government grant and make the switch to a Heatpump. Your house being 25 years old will have decent insulation and you would be taking advantage of the grants available now. Have a look on the Octopus website, they have some interesting offers on their Cosy 6 heatpump and they do a full survey first.
I went down the DIY route to a heatpump because I wanted to keep my gas boiler too, I have the luxury of being able to compare the running costs on both at the flick of a switch. The heatpump is at worst on par with gas and at best about 2/3 the cost of gas. My intention is to run this winter with gas boiler on standby and then in the spring next year if all goes well have the gas supply removed. There is a lot of bad press about heatpumps this is down to poor design and install.

 

[Spectric]

Don't forget the corrosion inhibitor, it is essential to keep things clean and sludge free and a good one to use is Fernox F1.

 

[Sideways]

I went down the DIY route to a heatpump because I wanted to keep my gas boiler too, I have the luxury of being able to compare the running costs on both at the flick of a switch. The heatpump is at worst on par with gas and at best about 2/3 the cost of gas. My intention is to run this winter with gas boiler on standby and then in the spring next year if all goes well have the gas supply removed. There is a lot of bad press about heatpumps this is down to poor design and install.

@johnb80 I'm curious about the same.
Do you fancy doing a separate thread on your choice of heatpump and how you fitted it into the system alongside the gas boiler ?

We have friends who have taken the grant and make the switch. This winter will be it's first proper test.

 

[johnb80]

@johnb80 I'm curious about the same.
Do you fancy doing a separate thread on your choice of heatpump and how you fitted it into the system alongside the gas boiler ?

We have friends who have taken the grant and make the switch. This winter will be it's first proper test.

Nothing much to it really. Ebay Mitusbishi 14kW Ecodan heatpump, flow and return water pipes Tee'd in above the boiler (just the other side of a wall), 32amp supply installed, all connected into home assistant for it to log and make decisions. Really impressed to be honest, I didnt change rads or hot water cylinder, I did try prior to install heating my house with a flow temperature from the gas boiler at 35 deg C and it was fine so the heatpump at 45 deg C was easy and very efficient. Average COP is about 4.3 even on peak rate electricity that works out at around 5.3p kWh of heat. Buying from ebay I got the pump new, unused but robbed of a sensor for £1800, the sensor was £31 and all good.

 

[RobinBHM]

Hi guys, last week my gas boiler finally gave up the ghost after 27 years of service. The boiler an IDEAL Classic RS250.
I called someone out today to give me a price and a more or less 'modern like for like swap was quoted as £2900.00 for the swap (equivalent modern Ideal boiler) including Hive smart thermostat.
The brickwork around the new small diameter flue will need doing but other than that it's virtually a straight swap. The house is a compact 4 bed detached just over 25 years old.
To be honest I haven't a clue with regard to pricing these days so if there are any heating engineers reading this, is this a fair price?

I had an Ideal Vogue system boiler fitted in Feb and Ive been very pleased indeed with it.

I did loads of research at the time and from what I read, the Ideal vogue is a reliable boiler, its liked by plumbers to install and maintain, parts are readily available and reasonable. The other boiler which is well regarded at a lowish price point is the Baxi / Main boiler.


It replaced a Stelrad Ideal gravity boiler, open vented

I paid about £4k for the boiler in a new place, it had a full powerflush and a new hw cylinder, Id say your price of £2900 is very good

the heating engineer installed it with hot water priority system layout and weather compensation -which is fantastic.

the problem with central heating systems is that heating up the hot water cylinder fast enough to cope with usage requires high flow temps, but heating only requires low flow temperatures, especially when its not that cold outside. UK systems, usually S plan are a real compromise as they only operate at a single temp.

the Ideal vogue has 2 temperature terminals and the boiler can have heating of hot water cylinder at 80c and the central heating set by the weather compensation, which for me since Ive had ranges from 32 deg to 48 degrees...........which is great as the return temp is always low and the boiler is always in condensing mode for heating

I have found the heating of the house at lower temps makes for really comfortable heating, often the radiators are just luke warm but the house is lovely and warm.


here is a video about it:

 

[John Brown]

That's interesting, as we will probably be forced to get a new boiler soonish. I'd always assumed that proper "system" boilers had separate temperature settings for CH and DHW, and that our Frankenstein system(combi boiler with the on-demand DHW blanked off and external diverter valves for the solar assisted water tank) was a peculiar problem. So I was surprised when Deema posted something about his new boiler. I'd thought that the Legionella issue would have mandated two different temperatures.

 

[Ed209]

I had an Ideal Vogue system boiler fitted in Feb and Ive been very pleased indeed with it.

I did loads of research at the time and from what I read, the Ideal vogue is a reliable boiler, its liked by plumbers to install and maintain, parts are readily available and reasonable. The other boiler which is well regarded at a lowish price point is the Baxi / Main boiler.


It replaced a Stelrad Ideal gravity boiler, open vented

I paid about £4k for the boiler in a new place, it had a full powerflush and a new hw cylinder, Id say your price of £2900 is very good

the heating engineer installed it with hot water priority system layout and weather compensation -which is fantastic.

the problem with central heating systems is that heating up the hot water cylinder fast enough to cope with usage requires high flow temps, but heating only requires low flow temperatures, especially when its not that cold outside. UK systems, usually S plan are a real compromise as they only operate at a single temp.

the Ideal vogue has 2 temperature terminals and the boiler can have heating of hot water cylinder at 80c and the central heating set by the weather compensation, which for me since Ive had ranges from 32 deg to 48 degrees...........which is great as the return temp is always low and the boiler is always in condensing mode for heating

I have found the heating of the house at lower temps makes for really comfortable heating, often the radiators are just luke warm but the house is lovely and warm.


here is a video about it:

Do you make tea with your hot water 80c is excessively hot 55c is a good average temp more than hot enough to wash etc. and hot enough to keep your cylinder bacteria free

 

[scholar]

A

Do you make tea with your hot water 80c is excessively hot 55c is a good average temp more than hot enough to wash etc. and hot enough to keep your cylinder bacteria free

Extract From HSE guidance on Legionnaires:

The primary method used to control the risk from Legionella is water temperature control.
Water services should be operated at temperatures that prevent Legionella growth:

• Hot water storage cylinders (calorifiers) should store water at 60°C or higher
• Hot water should be distributed at 50°C or higher (thermostatic mixer valves need to be fitted as close as possible to outlets, where a scald risk is identified).
• Cold water should be stored and distributed below 20°C.

Besides, 55°C will make for cool showers etc and/or need an enormous tank.

Cheers

 

[ey_tony]

Well I've finally got heat again after two weeks of being half frozen through having no central heating. Oil filled rads and small fan heaters can only do so much

I didn't bother shopping around with regard price in the end as a bit of research told me that the price wasn't too bad at £2,900 as £483.33 of the estimate was VAT and the gas engineer who installed the boiler had excellent reviews plus it's hard to get hold of someone to fit a boiler at this time of year due to everyone switching on their heating after the summer months which is when many break downs occur so a nine day wait was pretty good I thought.

I rang him on Monday morning and he came out the same afternoon, inspected everything and gave me the price there are then and told me his availability.
When I rang him to accept the price the following day, he and his secretary were again very professional in that she rang me to confirm personal details plus the booking time and date.

She also sent text and email confirmation about the booking including approximate arrival time.
Yesterday they sent a text reminding me that they would be here to fit the boiler.

He arrived at 8.30am prompt and from then on he was thoroughly professional and installed the new boiler, bricked up the old flue and installed the new 'Hive' control system. All went without a hitch after bleeding and checking the system and then he spent plenty of time explaining how the new system worked and how to control it by the Hive app on my phone or what to do if the wifi is ever down.

What a thoroughly pleasant experience from start to finish and I must admit I love the idea that I can switch on or adjust the heating or hot water from anywhere I choose in the house including while laid in bed on a cold winter's morning. All I have to do is reach over to my bedside table, pick up my phone and turn on/boost/turn down the heating/hot water without having to go downstairs to adjust the thermostat etc.
I opted to place the new new wireless thermostat in the same position as the old one but as the new one is wireless so it can be unclipped from the wall and placed in any room should I choose to do so.

Hopefully the new boiler will be more efficient than the old one so the annual savings should compensate for our beloved government's removal of the winter fuel allowance for my age group!

 

[Bingy man]

Well I've finally got heat again after two weeks of being half frozen through having no central heating. Oil filled rads and small fan heaters can only do so much

I didn't bother shopping around with regard price in the end as a bit of research told me that the price wasn't too bad at £2,900 as £483.33 of the estimate was VAT and the gas engineer who installed the boiler had excellent reviews plus it's hard to get hold of someone to fit a boiler at this time of year due to everyone switching on their heating after the summer months which is when many break downs occur so a nine day wait was pretty good I thought.

I rang him on Monday morning and he came out the same afternoon, inspected everything and gave me the price there are then and told me his availability.
When I rang him to accept the price the following day, he and his secretary were again very professional in that she rang me to confirm personal details plus the booking time and date.

She also sent text and email confirmation about the booking including approximate arrival time.
Yesterday they sent a text reminding me that they would be here to fit the boiler.

He arrived at 8.30am prompt and from then on he was thoroughly professional and installed the new boiler, bricked up the old flue and installed the new 'Hive' control system. All went without a hitch after bleeding and checking the system and then he spent plenty of time explaining how the new system worked and how to control it by the Hive app on my phone or what to do if the wifi is ever down.

What a thoroughly pleasant experience from start to finish and I must admit I love the idea that I can switch on or adjust the heating or hot water from anywhere I choose in the house including while laid in bed on a cold winter's morning. All I have to do is reach over to my bedside table, pick up my phone and turn on/boost/turn down the heating/hot water without having to go downstairs to adjust the thermostat etc.
I opted to place the new new wireless thermostat in the same position as the old one but as the new one is wireless so it can be unclipped from the wall and placed in any room should I choose to do so.

Hopefully the new boiler will be more efficient than the old one so the annual savings should compensate for our beloved government's removal of the winter fuel allowance for my age group!

As an x gas engineer this is exactly the level of customer service you should receive . Yes it will be more efficient depending on what energy rating your previous boiler was and how you use it . Get into the habit of turning your heating off when you’re not at home and simply turn it back on when you are on your way home . If during the winter you are away for several days or longer then monitor the house temperature via your phone app and switch the heating on as necessary. If you are concerned about nighttime low temperature ( pipes freezing leave the heating on but keep the stat low 12-15 deg . What control do you have - hive, nest , tado etc

 

[ey_tony]

As an x gas engineer this is exactly the level of customer service you should receive . Yes it will be more efficient depending on what energy rating your previous boiler was and how you use it . Get into the habit of turning your heating off when you’re not at home and simply turn it back on when you are on your way home . If during the winter you are away for several days or longer then monitor the house temperature via your phone app and switch the heating on as necessary. If you are concerned about nighttime low temperature ( pipes freezing leave the heating on but keep the stat low 12-15 deg . What control do you have - hive, nest , tado etc

Hello.
The engineer fitted the Hive system and it appears to be straight forward and user-friendly so I'd guess it will cater for all of our needs.
I could have had one of the alternatives you've listed but from what I'd gathered Hive seems to be the most popular with installers so I opted for that but he was willing to install one of the alternatives if I chose to do so but generally they all do much the same thing as far as I could see.

So far the Hive kit/app has been very easy to set up and schedule as a user, far easier than messing about with the old wall timer and although the Hive system is digital it does seem pretty simple and bomb-proof though time will tell on that. Obviously if the internet is down so too are wireless connections but it has the emergency manual override so all is good.
The boiler is covered by a 10 year warranty but I suspect the Hive kit will be typically one year.

During colder holiday periods we've always set the original analogue system to 10-12 deg and lower temps depending upon the time of year. Just enough to keep the chill off the home and prevent any risk of freezing during winter. As we have the traditional insulated hot water cylinder/airing cupboard, the boiler was set to come on for one hour mornings and evenings and we've always had plenty of hot water. During periods when we were away, there was no use of hot water so with the cylinder insulation etc, heat loss from the cylinder was minimal so demand on the boiler was minimal to heat the water.
My OH preferred to retain the cylinder/airing cupboard so that's the new boiler was basically a more efficient like for like replacement.

With the Hive system I have full remote control. What will be nice after a day out in winter, is that instead of coming home to a cold house because the timer hadn't switched in, I can now adjust it instantly and remotely from wherever I am so no more coming home to a cold house in winter. That to me is progress.