Alternative Energy Sources?

[ByronBlack]

Me and the missus are getting more and more into self-sufficiency which is unexpected as I've never classed myself as a greeny, but with the world the way it is at the moment, I can see energy security becoming ever more important, and with our government selling of our resources left, right and centre it's becoming more and more worrying that we rely on a vast percentage of our energy from abroad.

So, it got me thinking, just how practical is it to install a solar-panel, wind turbine, wood burner etc.. and how would it be possible to store that energy for the longterm?

Has anyone here used any of these products for generating and storing their own energy?

 

[Maia28]

I have a woodburner that has a built-in boiler. I had to move the bathroom last year and replaced the hot tank that lived in there with a thermal store in the loft above the woodburner. This stores hot water from a variety of possible sources and uses a heat exchanger to give mains pressure hot water and can circulated stored water for heating. I got the thermal store from these people and it is easy to install , very good quality, quiet but relatively expensive:

http://www.heatweb.com/

The wood boiler seems to be reducing gas consumption, but can't give you any cost savings yet. I get wood for free and love making fires so there has been little capital outlay that I wouldn't have made anyway.

The idea was that I could connect a solar-thermal panel (described on that site) but really I'm not sure that they are worth it given the lower thermal requirements when the panel actualy operates. Wind-power is just a waste of money to, especially if you go down the subsidised route, as the generator probably wont last long enough to repay the outlay and you'll probably upset your neighbours.

Andy

 

[Waka]

I use solar power for my hot water, would certainly recommend. So far this year its cost me £210 for gas and thats with the central heating.

 

[filsgreen]

Byron, I feel so cynical about the "green strategy" What can an island the size of GB do to affect the outcome of the world's green house gases? I truly feel it is like a spit in the ocean. My wife keeps telling me that we have got to start some where, but when the likes of the USA. China and Russia are doing their own thing, why should we try?

What I think is that we feel that as a nation we are still world leaders, but in reality we are no such thing I think the Government use the whole scenario to beat us about the head to raise "Green taxes". I live in Jersey, where this poxy little "tax exile" island think they are world leaders :shock: I mean it's 9 miles by 5 miles wide :shock: :shock: , but they are doing the same as the mainland.

Sorry for the rant

Phil

PS. I still love living in Jersey

 

[MikeG.]

Byron,

never minding Phil's comments above, there are a variety of simple steps you can take.

The first and least sexy is to increase the energy efficiency of your house.........insulation, draught-proofing and modern central heating controls. Chuck out your Aga if you have one.

Of the "bolt-on" technologies, a decent woodburning stove is the most familiar and easiest. Insert a flue in your chimney and add a register plate.

The next step would be a solar hot-water panel. The evacuated tube technologies are now so advanced that you can achieve really good results.......all your hot water in summer, most of your requirements in spring and autumn, and some contribution in winter.......it should average around 50 to 60% of your annual hot-water.

Forget photovotaics. They simply aren't efficient enough in our climate, and can take about 12 years in the UK to generate the same amount of energy that went into their production in the first place. Different story if you live in the clear-skied areas of the world, but our cloudy climate doesn't justify them, I'm afraid.

Wind turbines are interesting...........and it is all about size and location. Their output is related to the cube of their swept area.....double the swept area and you get 8 times the output.....triple it and you get 27 times the output and so on. This is why commercial turbines are so huge. Even small turbines should be at least 10 metres above ground level, and well away from trees and rooves. If you live on the top of a hill in a farm, then you would get great benefit. If you can share one with the rest of your village, great. But individual ones are really a waste of money.

Hope this helps......I've loads of detail if you want.

Mike

 

[ByronBlack]

Hey phil,

I couldn't agree with you more mate. I think the whole 'climatic change' is one big scam for the energy elite to protect their investments and get more cash from us.

My motivation for 'green' energy is that I can keep more of my hard-earned money in my pocket and that I can stick my middle finger up towards the government and their nonsense taxes.

I'm also getting into vegetable growing quite a bit (well, the missus does most of it) as I'm put off by all the crap that gets put on food these days, I'm really trying to be as self-sufficient and removed from the government as possible.

Thanks for all info and links chaps, I shall take a look later this evening. Does anyone know that if I'm in a smoke-free zone, can I still use a wood-burner?

Mike - thanks for the tips mate, unfortunately i'm in the middle of a terrace so I think a wind-turbine that large would be a no-go, we do have a large playing field that we back on to, but somehow with out council I doubt we would get planning.

If you have any links, documents etc.. then please by all mean let me know, I'm at the early stage of seeing what technologies there are and working out whats possible at the moment, so any info is handy at the moment.

 

[MikeG.]

Sorry.....I forgot wood-pellet boilers. If you are considering replacing your boiler, then have a look at a wood-pellet boiler. They are wonderful, and virtually zero-carbon emitters. They are expensive, but the modern systems are so good that they are no more hassle than an oil boiler. The fuel flows like a liquid, can be bulk delivered into a hopper, and there are quite a number of UK suppliers now. They do take more space than an orthodox boiler.

Mike

 

[filsgreen]

I'm about to start growing my own veg as well Byron. It's the first time I've had a veg patch. It's only about 4x4 but I think we should get enough potatos for both of us. I'm waiting for the Jersey royal season, I think you plant out in January. If successful I might try growing onions and carrrots.

Mike, have you any tips for me, besides move out? My wife and I live in a 1930's single skin, brick bungalow and the damp is driving us mad. We have bought a de-humidifier and it extracts 2 liters of water every eight hours.

Cheers

Phil

 

[Ironballs]

Sadly a dehumidifier won't help the problem and maybe even accelerates the transport of water as you are encouraging evaporation by lowering the relative humidity in your house.

Take it you have been down the route of damp course/water proof membranes etc?

Putting a dehumidifier in my garage would be like trying to boil the ocean with all the water ingress and draught issues

 

[MikeG.]

Phil,

yes, those bungalows are a nightmare unaltered, but can be solved completely.

Firstly, is it literally single skin (ie 4"), or is it a 9" solid wall?

The very best insulation principal for a solid wall is to insulate outside it. There are a number of systems, some of which include render, even brick-slips.......but a lot will depend on your roof. If you have a decent overhang everywhere, including at the gables (if any), then this is a real practicality. A really good thick layer of external insulation in your circumstances could get your heating bills down to £100 for the year, in conjunction with a number of other steps.

If you can't insulate externally, then internally is more disruptive, and ultimately less efficient, but very much worthwhile considering. You will have smaller rooms, but will be very much warmer.

I assume you have double glazing and loft insulation?

The next step, and one that is so dead easy in a bungalow, is a whole house ventilation system with heat recovery. This is a box in the loft with ducts to the ceilings of all of your rooms, which extracts stale and damp air and draws in a contstant supply of fresh air. It has a heat exchanger (which is no more than a plastic grill matrix), and so your incoming air is pre-warmed by the heat from your extracted air. It also has a condensate drain, so will drain all the excess moisture from your internal air. They are brilliant. I wouldn't ever live without one again. No condensation anywhere in my house, ever. No dog smells. No cooking smells. Last time I looked you could get a system for £700 to £1000, and you can of course then get rid of your dehumidifier.

Mike

 

[wizer]

I posted about electric solar panels a while back and the resounding opinion is that they aren't worth it. It would take years to get your money back.

I'd love to have a wood burner in the house but my missus would never go for it. Plus I can't imagine where it would go.

I have wondered if there'd be a business in buying one of those machines that makes logs out of paper/saw dust and providing a service. But it sounds like more work than it's worth.

 

[Ironballs]

I've got a little hand press that you make paper brickettes out of, soak your newspaper in water and then press it into a brick sized piece. It's a bit messy, you get black hands and the brickettes take quite a while to dry through.

However, it is better than sticking the papers in the recycler and a weekend paper can make a surprisingly large amount of brickettes. I store our papers and usually make them once a quarter. Will well for about an hour and give off a lot of heat, though with more ash than wood - the ash can go on the garden though.

 

[filsgreen]

Ironballs, I was informed by the salesman that the dehumidifier will actually cost nothing to run as it is drying out the air, which then makes it easier for the oil fired central heating to heat up. He even went so far as to say there has been a paper written to support his theory. As to the garage, it is constantly 70% humidity

Unfortunately Mike we only lease the house on a yearly basis so we cannot make any changes whatsoever. Of course the estate agents managing the property have told me that their builder considers it to be heavy condensation and will not do anything to rectify the problem. There is a render on the outside of the house and the loft is insulated, albeit not very well. The exterior, internal walls appear to be 4 inches thick as each internal wall sounds like they have a plaster board covering.

Sorry to hijack your thread Byron.

Phil

 

[Oryxdesign]

I posted about electric solar panels a while back and the resounding opinion is that they aren't worth it. It would take years to get your money back.

I'd love to have a wood burner in the house but my missus would never go for it. Plus I can't imagine where it would go.

I have wondered if there'd be a business in buying one of those machines that makes logs out of paper/saw dust and providing a service. But it sounds like more work than it's worth.

You could solve your other problem if you put it in the garage, get one with a back boiler and get hot water too

 

[Digit]

I had to smile at your suggestion of keeping turbines clear of trees Mike. My house is surrounded by wind breaks and it's that damned windy around here I think that if they were removed to benefit a turbine it would be a toss up between the electricity generated and the heat lost to the wind!

Roy.

 

[Grinding One]

Here in the states we are installing more wind turbins ,just south of my house there are about 30 of them on the river bluff,they do generate quite a lot of electricity.They are about 100 feet high and I`m told when operateing turn at the outside edge of blade 110 mph. but it looks like the are going 10 mph to me.Blades are 30 fteet long....
We also have Heaters that burn coal,wood pellets or corn...well insulated and heat very nice too.
My little garden gave me pickles,tomatoes,peppers,beans, strawberrys and rubbarb...

 

[John McM]

When we get planning permission sorted for our cottage renovation I will be seriously looking at the new generation of air source heat pumps like the latest from Mitsubishi Electric

http://www.iceenergy.co.uk/why-buy-ecodan-_233/

 

[MikeG.]

John,

I will have to have a word with you about that!!! These things are no more than glorified electric heating.......indeed, an air source heat pump is an air-conditioner, only heating the inside and cooling the outside.

This is fashionable "greenwash", I'm afraid.

Mike

 

[RogerS]

John,

I will have to have a word with you about that!!! These things are no more than glorified electric heating.......indeed, an air source heat pump is an air-conditioner, only heating the inside and cooling the outside.

This is fashionable "greenwash", I'm afraid.

Mike

Mike..can you expand a bit please? Isn't the principle the same as a ground store heat pump? Both use electricity to extract heat from an external source. Are you saying that the air version is not as efficient as the ground based version or are you saying that they are ALL bad? And are there any studies done to support this view?

 

[Jake]

Erm, the reason that ground source works is that the ground temperature lags air temperatures (which is the thing you are trying to change in the house). It's a great big heatsink during summer, so over winter it is slightly warmer than the air, so you can take some heat from it with efficient heat exchangers.

Trying to change the temperature by taking heat from the air is a forlorn hope, when there is no differential. I don't think it needs much studying done, does it?