Advice needed on LN #4-1/2 fault finding

[mr]

The point is that there seems to be some assumption, a myth perhaps, that planes from LN are "ready to go".

The new Lie Nielson "UK" site states quite clearly (and I quote)
"Your Lie-Nielsen Bench Plane is ready to cut wood out of the box." Perhaps this is the cause of some of the confusion. It doesn't appear to be a myth or an assumption rather a bald statement made by the manufacturers themselves. Now you could say that the wording kind of hedges its bets, after all a ragged fingernail might "cut" wood as well - but the point is that LN (at least in this instance) are presented as being ready to go out of the box. David C may find the concept ludicrous but as a total beginner it wasn't untill I managed to read up a bit, particularly some of David's articles that I became aware that paying a premium price didn't neccesarially result in getting a premium tool and that there was a world of improvement to be had with some patient attention. Any beginner who buys an LN believing that the thing will be ready out of the box may be so impressed with the sudden improvement in their ablitities that they may not be aware that there is yet work to be done to get the plane to perform at its best. I don't know though I haven't had the pleasure of trying an LN. This is one of the problems for a learner / beginner, short of being shown what sort of results you should be getting the beginner possibly thinks that "this is as good as it gets". For my own part I fully intend to head for Hartland when finances allow - I'm sure I have a lot to learn and the only way to learn this sort of thing is to be shown.
Cheers Mike.

 

[Paul Chapman]

I gave up chasing manufacturers to include meaningfull tuning notes with planes after about 20 years of trying. They apparantly see this as an admission of fault and fear that the information will be used to denigrate the tool quality.

I think hand-tool manufacturers are really missing an opportunity here. I have lots of friends and relations who do DIY and sometimes attempt making basic items of furniture. Most of them have a plane and some chisels languishing in the garage or the bottom of a tool box in a rather sorry state. When I ask if they ever sharpen them they look at me blankly. Most don't know that you are supposed to sharpen them, and those who do haven't a clue how.

Given that schools gave up teaching woodwork years ago, that's not surprising.

I think that if I were a plane manufacturer, I would be looking to produce a DVD which could be included with every plane I sold, explaining how to hone and set up the plane for best results and showing how to use it and the sort of results that can be produced. Once the production costs had been recovered, the cost of each DVD would be very little. I am sure the benefits in increased customer satisfaction would be worth it. They might even sell a few more planes - and honing guides, and sharpening stones......... :wink:

Paul

 

[Colin C]

[

I think hand-tool manufacturers are really missing an opportunity here. I have lots of friends and relations who do DIY and sometimes attempt making basic items of furniture. Most of them have a plane and some chisels languishing in the garage or the bottom of a tool box in a rather sorry state. When I ask if they ever sharpen them they look at me blankly. Most don't know that you are supposed to sharpen them, and those who do haven't a clue how.

Given that schools gave up teaching woodwork years ago, that's not surprising.

I think that if I were a plane manufacturer, I would be looking to produce a DVD which could be included with every plane I sold, explaining how to hone and set up the plane for best results and showing how to use it and the sort of results that can be produced. Once the production costs had been recovered, the cost of each DVD would be very little. I am sure the benefits in increased customer satisfaction would be worth it. They might even sell a few more planes - and honing guides, and sharpening stones......... :wink:

Paul

There is one small ( :roll: :wink: ) problem with that, is that some of the big tool manufacturers no longer care about they customers ( look at what you now get from Stanley and Marples ), if they did they would put the time in to making sure more of they planes where at lest flat when here go to the shops :?.
I have a friend that has not long become a carpenter and bought some Marples chisels but could not work out why he could not get a good edge on them, I looked at them and saw that the grinding on the back of them was no better than the top of my table of my band saw.
This is not good for a big manufacturer to yhink this is ok but they do, this is why all of my bench planes and chisels are old and the few new ones I have are Sorby's ( chisels ).
It is good to see some manufacturer ( LN, LV & Clifton to name three ) have a standard that they wish to keep high.
If I had the money I would be looking to get a plane from one of these manufacturers but not at the moment :wink:

 

[Paul Chapman]

[some of the big tool manufacturers no longer care about they customers ( look at what you now get from Stanley and Marples ), if they did they would put the time in to making sure more of they planes where at lest flat when here go to the shops :?.

Exactly! In fact not only are the manufacturers missing an opportunity, I think most have lost the plot all together. Thank goodness we have Clifton, LN and LV. I just feel very sorry for Joe Public who go into B&Q and buy a Stanley or Record, which need a lot of work on them, but they don't even know how to sharpen them anyway.

All very sad really

Paul

 

[Midnight]

David C wrote

The concept of trying a plane, out of the box, without honing the blade or checking the front edge of the capiron/chipbreaker is quite frankly LUDICROUS.

I find it deeply depressing that anyone would even think of doing this.

David.. at the risk of starting an argument, allow me to quote from Trading Standards re what any buyer has the right to expect "straight out of the box"...


Your Statutory Rights

The Sale of Goods Act 1979 (as amended)

says that goods should be:


Of a Satisfactory Quality, i.e. of a standard that a reasonable person would consider to be satisfactory - generally free from fault or defect, as well as being fit for their usual purpose, of a reasonable appearance and finish, safe and durable
Fit for the purpose - As well as being fit for the purpose for which they are generally sold, goods should also be fit for any specific or particular purpose made known at the time of the agreement
As described - Goods should correspond with any description applied to them. This could be verbally, words or pictures on a sign, packaging or an advert.


Like yourself, I earn my living through a proficiency with hand tools... With the exception of planes and chisels, every tool I buy is "fit for purpose" fresh from its packaging; to accept anything less than that is quite frankly absurd. With that in mind and with the might of Trading Standards behind every purchace I make, I can't help but wonder why it is that plane and chisel makers feel they have a right to offload goods on the market that are far from being ready to use? From a professional point of view, I find such a practice unethical; From Trading Standards definitions, such practices are also illegal... So why do they get away with it...?

The point I was trying to illustrate by referring to what L-N's are capable of doing "right outa the box" was that these tools are not built to the generally accepted pitiful standards set by the industry, quite the reverse.. Granted, they need some tuning, but the tuning required can be done in a matter of minutes as opposed to the hours needed to make a lesser tool perform reasonably.
I agree with you that when properly tuned, the performance of these tools is astonishing!!

 

[Midnight]

I recall someone asked why I filed the cap iron if there wasn't anything wrong with it. I knew it was new and therefore I filed it.

Derek..... the point to my question wasn't to query the why, it was querying your choice of tool... using a file to tune a chip breaker is akin to using a felling axe to finish smooth a board.... wayyyyyy too much tool dude...

 

[engineer one]

like many i have studied this thread with some interest.

i to find that it is inconceivable that manufacturers seem to think that
it is legitimate to sell a product as complete when it needs often a great
deal of extra work.

when i trained in my first incarnation as an engineer, and we bought tools
they worked. i mean it is kind of inconceivable that a file would not remove metal, nor a hacksaw cut, and even cold chisels do their job,
although we each learnt to "fettle" them to our idea of most effective.

it came as a surprise therefore to discover that woodworking tools are
still sold without being truly complete, yet the promotion thereof
gives the impression that they will work as described.

but then i think "****" i have been working with computers since we had big air conditioned, floating floor mainframes, and they still don't work properly out of the box. and we actually still never own the software.
How did we fall for that con trick :? :? :? :?

checking the leaflet provided by LN for my Iron Mitre Plane, it does say
"the blade comes ready to use. slight additional honing will increase
performance" can't be clearer can it??? :shock: :lol:

i have been lucky enough to learn the basics of sharpening, and honing
but i have also read and listened to a whole bunch of info, and i was
actually interested, about sharpening. there is, as we have said before,
too much conflicting information. if you are not really interested
but have bought the tools, then how you learn i really do not know.

generally i have found that out of the box, LN and LV plane blades work,
but as the leaflet says, work better when honed, and polished on the back.
but how come neither produce sharpening or honing kits for their
products?????? :?

sadly, so far i have not found one product from any hand tool manufacturer
that has been ready to rock and roll from the get go, why?????

i guess i would not mind if the packaging said "you will need to make this
product sharper to get the full benefit", but then in an age when some
building sites in scotland do not allow a pointed blade stanley knife on the
job, i guess they will all say it is a health and safety requirement that we do
not provide completely sharpened cutting tools.

but to that i say, i can go into IKEA and even a pound shop, and buy
a pair of scissors for between 50 and 99p that will cut paper or
my nails from the get go. maybe not for long but!!!!!!!!!

what we all seem to have discovered is that "big brand names" tend to be run by bean counters who trade on their old reputation, whilst the newer guys like LN and LV, Clifton and Holtey actually care about what they
are producing and selling, so we have to give those guys our support
when they do it right, and when they screw up, tell them in a reasonable
manner, and try to help them improve even more.

i believe that we have responsibly evaluated from a distance the kind
of problems that derek experienced with the 41/2, and now we must
hope that when the blade is returned, tom will honour us with a report
of his findings.

paul :wink:

 

[Handrubbed]

A 6-year-old, second-hand plane with a replacement cap iron and an obsolete blade is not the proper subject for a comparative review. It can be judged only on its own merits much the way one would assess any pre-owned tool. Derek, next time you are in the Chicago, Illinois USA vicinity you would be welcome to try my L-N 4-1/2; with either frog, and cocobolo handles. You would not be disappointed.

 

[Alf]

A 6-year-old, second-hand plane with a replacement cap iron and an obsolete blade is not the proper subject for a comparative review.

A thought that also occurred to me, but on the other hand as we don't yet know what Derek's parameters are it's a little early to judge. After all the basic design hasn't changed, has it? But yes, on the face of it, it appears to be a bit ho-hum-ish. :-k

There's one big, fat reason why the likes of Stanley, "Irwin" :roll: et al won't provide proper information with their edge tools - they'll miss out 75% of their sales to people who buy another one "because the other one wasn't cutting any more"... :wink:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Still learning]

I've been following this tread over the last few days.

I'm the owner of the now infamous LN#4½.

I also own two late 1980 or early 1990 era Sanleys (#3 and #6) and several Lie Nielsens (among them a #5 and #62) all purchased before the #4½.

Firstly, I would like to correct a possible misconception in Derek's reports on this plane. Whilst it is true that the plane was assembled as a one-off on the day I bought it, the phrase “assembled using available parts” is possibly misleading. On the day I visited Warren I also had the privilege of touring the Lie Nielsen factory floor. From what I observed, plane components are made in batches and stockpiled pending final assembly. There is considerable standardization and hence commonality in parts between different planes. For example: the frog, blade, chip breaker, and lever cap are interchangeable between the #4½, #5½, #6 and #7. Many other components are even more interchangeable. This means that if the assembly team are making and packing #6s, to make and pack a #4½ only requires the selection of a #4½ sole and appropriate sized box, all the other parts required will be at hand.

Secondly, my experience with the LN#5 and #62 I own is that, with little more than the honing of a microbevel, they were ready to go to my satisfaction out-of-the-box. This is especially true in if the LN#5 is compared with the Stanley #3 I own. The #3 really only worked after a day spent at a plane tuning workshop where its sole was flattened, the frog and mouth adjusted, the chipbreaker jointed and its leading edge smoothed. The back of the blade also required considerable work to get it flat enough to apply David Charlesworth’s ruler trick.

Based on my experience I do not think Lie Nielsen’s advertising is misleading — his planes work out of the box and work even better after a little blade preparation, no other component needs to be adjusted.

Given that my experience with the LN#5 had been reinforced with the other LN planes that I owned as of 2000, I don't think it was unreasonable that I expected the LN#4½, with only minimal blade preparation, to also work out of the box.

Derek and I have exchanged emails over the past week and I'm confident that he has isolated the problem to some aspect of the metallurgy of the blade itself. In respect to the other possible problem areas mentioned here and on WoodCentral, Derek is satisfied that, as manufactured, the #4½'s sole is flat, the frog properly seated square and true to the mouth, and that the blade seats properly on the frog.

For the record, Thomas Lie Nielsen has already dispatched a replacement blade.

Lastly, as far as I'm aware the only difference between my LN#4½ and one made last week is current production comes with an A2 steel blade.
I'm sure that Derek will address this when he completes the review I lent him the #4½ for.

 

[David C]

Mike,

I am similarly perplexed!

However perhaps a plane is a bit like a car, won't go without petrol vs won't go well without sharp blade. And to be fair, chipbreaker faults may not show up till the mouth is closed right down and c/b set very close to edge.

My computer would be of little use to this middle aged latecomer, if it were not for the generous assistance of my web site building, techie friend.

We might not like the price if everything was prepared perfectly in the factory? Karl does the best possible job. T L-N says let's do it right and see what the cost is. Stanley have decided to produce a number five for about £50.

Another pet hate are marking gauges. I lent a tuned up Stanley 506 (as per page 14 & 15 of my first book) to a Sheffield manufacturer, pointing out the advantages of the "locking on the diagonal". About a year later he gave it back saying words to the effect of, "I am too busy selling the traditional (wobbles in one plane) type to even think about this".

best wishes,
David

 

[MikeW]

Hi Still Learning--welcome to the forum!

Take care, Mike

 

[Nick W]

Damn,

Now I'm going to have to find a new sig.

 

[David C]

Ian,

please e mail me direct, if you think I can help! Cannot find you e mail on your private mail to me....

David Charlesworth

[email protected]

 

[Midnight]

My computer would be of little use to this middle aged latecomer, if it were not for the generous assistance of my web site building, techie friend.

My own planes and chisels (marking guages too) would be rather expensive door stops and paperweights were it not for the penmanship of a certain master craftsman in north Devon, and the guides manufactured by a certain Canadian with a warped sense of humour... education happens.

Stanley have decided to produce a number five for about £50

Perhaps Stanley would be persuaded to change their tune if they were billed for the 10+ hours it takes to turn their door stops into something resembling a precision cutting tool..

"I am too busy selling the traditional (wobbles in one plane) type to even think about this".

as my dad used to say... ye can take a horse t water but ye canna make it drink!! Still.. at least you tried..

 

[Midnight]

but then in an age when some
building sites in scotland do not allow a pointed blade stanley knife on the
job, i guess they will all say it is a health and safety requirement that we do
not provide completely sharpened cutting tools.

one of the more memorable moments of my carear was taking both my production and safety managers aside to demonstrate that their "all knives are Bad" policy was not only insane, but detramantal to the job. Highlight was illustrating by example that it was impossible to maintain quality standards while wearing the mickey mouse kevlar gloves they insisted I wore while using an open blade... With knives, as in life, good training is worth a hellova lot more than a ton of BS safety regs....

net result was I've been given an exemption from their policies... Common sense is alive n well in some parts of Scotland..

 

[Paul Kierstead]

With knives, as in life, good training is worth a hellova lot more than a ton of BS safety regs....

And, when good training isn't performed? It is easy to say such things, but a lot of employers couldn't be bothered, resulting in staggering levels of worker injuries and deaths over the ages. Maybe you can handle the knife well, but to pass of it all as "BS safety regs" would just put it back to the beginnings of industrial age. Or ****, a lot more recently; my father's knee's and hearing is shot from the workplace (carpenter) that was entirely preventable.

 

[Midnight]

And, when good training isn't performed?

simple answer is that if you don't know how to use a tool properly, don't use it... I've yet to hear of any amount of PPE suddenly imbuing the wearer with a proficiency they didn't already have... it's been my experience that proficiency needs to be raised to a higher level to overcome loss of dexterity / tactile feedback when encumbered by PPE..

Better answer is not to use the tool until you're suitably trained to do so...

It is easy to say such things, but a lot of employers couldn't be bothered, resulting in staggering levels of worker injuries and deaths over the ages.

It's only recently that the laws have changed to impose a duty of care upon an employer... something that shoulda hapened decades ago IMHO... However, that doesn't remove the responsability of the employee's personal safety from the employee... it's always been the case that "if ye dinna look after yersel, naebody else will.!!" Using any tool without suitable training is asking for trouble..

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

Executive summary: Advice was requested owing to the difficulty experienced in obtaining an even shaving with a 6 year old NOS (new old stock) iron in a equally NOS LN #4 1/2 plane. After careful examination, the plane checked out as fitting perfectly in all important aspects pertinent to controling the cut. The conclusion drawn was that there was something wrong with the blade, and the conclusion drawn was that fault(s) lay with either the sharpening technique, the composition of the steel, the construction of the iron, or a combination of the above. Since an alternative iron, from Clifton, was honed on the same waterstones and thereafter worked correctly, the finger appeared to point more at the construction or composition of the iron.

The iron was returned to LN for examination. Below is the reply I have just received from Thomas L-N:

Derek,

I was away at a show this week, and when I returned your blade was on my
desk. We tested hardness, which was fine, and then I put a straight
edge on the edge - there is a very small hollow in the blade, but enough
to produce the symptoms you described. We tested the blade in a plane
and found that the center portion did in fact not cut while the edges
were cutting a fine shaving. I hope you have the new blade by now, and
that you are getting great results with the tool. Please let me know!

Thanks for sending the blade back so I could check it out.

Best wishes,

Thomas

So scratch difficulties with the composition of the iron. The message does not explain why the hollow was there. Whether it was due to construction (and, inspite of a "DC Ruler Trick Backbevel", that the back of the bevel was not flattened sufficiently), or because (and politely not mentioned!) that the user (yours truly) stuffed up the sharpening. While I would be surprised at the latter, I do not exclude it!

Throughout, LN have been wonderfully supportive and helpful (as usual). I have also received a beautiful new replacement iron. It is flat and looks quite different to the original. It is now Saturday morning and this weekend I shall hone it up and make some shavings and report on it. Until later (as I dash off to do the demands of my dear wife).

Regards from Perth

Derek