Advice needed on LN #4-1/2 fault finding

[Paul Chapman]

Clearly, the blade did not hold an edge and was softer in the centre than at the sides.

Derek,

This would suggest that there was a problem at the manufacturing stage of the blade and somehow the hardening and tempering of the blade is variable across its width. Is this likely or possible? I'm not sure given that I don't know how they go about this process when they manufacture the blades? Like Alf, I'm just genuinely interested and puzzled :?

Paul

 

[Derek Cohen (Perth Oz)]

So... how come you weren't getting the same effect on the other blades?

I am also trying to understand and learn from this, so the following is my interpretation, not necessarily the only explanation.

The "other" blades are A2 LV (both the BUS and the Marcou use the same blade). The LN, I have now been told, was purchased in 2000 (and, yes, was unused), is likely to be HCS.

As you know, it is much harder to hone A2 than HCS, plus it is also harder to create a meaningful camber (or hollow) on a bevel up blade (that is, a BU blade requires greater camber than a BD blade to take effect).

Does this add anything?

This would suggest that there was a problem at the manufacturing stage of the blade and somehow the hardening and tempering of the blade is variable across its width.

Paul, indeed, that is how it appears. Although the edges were doing more cutting (since they had more contact with the wood than the centre section of the blade), they remained sharper longer. That is, they were still cutting when the centre was clearly blunt.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[David C]

Derek,

Glad you got that sorted out.

The A2 Cryo blades will work for 3 or 4 times longer than a carbon steel blade, if you can sharpen them effectively.
This explains why I am not a fan of the Clifton (Victor) blades, or the old L-N carbon steel blades. I can remember all too clearly how often they needed sharpening when working difficult, dense abrasive woods.

Perhaps this thread sould be re named

TROUBLE SHOOTING SHARPENING TECHNIQUES????!


David Charlesworth

 

[Midnight]

As an aside, I did, on your recommendation, purchase the Jack and I culdn't be more pleased. There is no question that as soon as school tuitions are paid this spring a new BU will be in the mail to replace the "ornery" LN.

George.. when you bought the L-N, you gained a lifetime warranty for the plane... If for any reason you're unsatisfied with it, I'd strongly recommend you get in touch with them. From personal experience I can assre you that they'll do whatever's necessary to either return the plane to you in "fit for purpose" condition or see that you're refunded... L-N are one of a few companies that pride themselves on 100% customer satisfaction..

 

[Alf]

I am also trying to understand and learn from this, so the following is my interpretation, not necessarily the only explanation.

The "other" blades are A2 LV (both the BUS and the Marcou use the same blade). The LN, I have now been told, was purchased in 2000 (and, yes, was unused), is likely to be HCS.

As you know, it is much harder to hone A2 than HCS, plus it is also harder to create a meaningful camber (or hollow) on a bevel up blade (that is, a BU blade requires greater camber than a BD blade to take effect).

Does this add anything?

Mmm, I'm gonna have to think about this one a bit. :-k

George, welcome to the forum. Mike is bang on the money; get in touch with LN and I'm sure it'll be sorted out one way or the other to your satisfaction.

Cheers, Alf

 

[philip marcou]

Phew, I'm glad that's out of the way, I was quite convinced the L.N had developed an inferiority complex, being in the august company of those, er, other planes.(apologies to Bro. Michael Midnight of Aberdeen). Also , the growing list of suspected ailments had reached epidemic proportions , making it difficult for me to submit a diagnosis.
HOWEVER, it brings to mind a couple of questions that I have asked of people, and never got a 100% satisfactory reply- a) do folk actually look at what they have done when they hone or sharpen and b) do they test for sharpness and how is this done?
Sound like daft questions......

 

[Alf]

a) do folk actually look at what they have done when they hone or sharpen

Yep. Often in order to say "cripes, what a mess..." Seriously though, yes, I do. Not under extreme magnification or anything, but I can't sharpen without I look at the result. I don't get enough workshop time to do anything without testing the result to some extent.

b) do they test for sharpness and how is this done?

I run the back of the blade up my thumbnail - if it takes a shaving it's usually okay for wood too.

Sound like daft questions......

Not in the least; no such thing here.

Cheers, Alf

 

[philip marcou]

U C now , I am starting to get answers that are not 100% correct..... :wink:

 

[bugbear]

HOWEVER, it brings to mind a couple of questions that I have asked of people, and never got a 100% satisfactory reply- a) do folk actually look at what they have done when they hone or sharpen and b) do they test for sharpness and how is this done?
Sound like daft questions......

Neither. For Bailey pattern 2" plane blades, I remove the round blunt edge with a abrasive chosen by experience, judgement or guesswork to to work as quickly as possible without removing excess (precious!) steel. This is normally 180 grit or 240 AlZi. Once this has generated a burr on the back side of the blade, the bevel gets around 5-7 strokes on each grit up to 2000.

That's it; back in the plane.

On blades I'm not familiar with I check progress (of the abrasion marks) with a 10x magnifyer. Blade size, bevel width and steel resistance to abrasion can all vary the rate of metal removal.

But I still don't check "sharpness". If the bevel has been made by proper use of abrasives up to (around) 2000 grit, with each stage removing the scratches of the former, the blade *IS* sharp. It's a consequence of the process. I check the process, not the sharpness.

BugBear

 

[Paul Chapman]

a) do folk actually look at what they have done when they hone or sharpen and b) do they test for sharpness and how is this done?

Yes, and I keep a piece of wood in one of my vices to test the plane before using it on the piece on which I am working. This not only tests for sharpness but also whether the cap iron, blade alignment, etc is set properly and that I am generally happy with the way the plane is cutting.

Don't bother with magnifying glasses and the like - don't want to get any more paranoid than I already am 8-[ 8-[ 8-[

At the end of the day the real test is whether the plane is cutting the way I want it to.

Paul

 

[hockeydad]

George.. when you bought the L-N, you gained a lifetime warranty for the plane... If for any reason you're unsatisfied with it, I'd strongly recommend you get in touch with them. From personal experience I can assre you that they'll do whatever's necessary to either return the plane to you in "fit for purpose" condition or see that you're refunded... L-N are one of a few companies that pride themselves on 100% customer satisfaction..

First, let me apologize for the font size of this reply, (what happened) and to all for my lack of contribution to this post. I didn't realize the level of discussion which would ensue and I feel as though I jumped on someone elses bandwagon. Having said that:

Mike/Alf,,

Thanks for the welcome and the advice. I didn't realize that The LN carried a lifetime guarantee. However, given Derek's apparent solution (at least conclusion) to the problem, I think I owe it to myself and the company to take another crack at making it work. My previous attempts at sharpening had been using an old eclipse on 220, 400, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000 grit papers. I recently purchased the MK ll so I'll see if it makes a difference. I'm still amazed at the LV Jack's performance out of the box, (standard and 38* bevels) and I somehow see four 4 1/2's lined up on my shelf, assuming that I can get reasonable performance out of the LN.

Alf,

If I could have figured out how to get two quotes on the same reply I would have attributed your post.

George S

Modedit: It's ok now.

 

[Alf]

George, feel free to jump aboard any discussion; some of the most interesting stuff crops up at a tangent to the "main event". Personally I wouldn't have it any other way 'cos it's more like real conversation.

If you feel more comfortable giving the LN another go before crying help it's quite understandable. I'm always reluctant to contact manufacturers until I'm absolutely sure it's not me wot's the problem But let us know either way, won't you? Chances are someone at LN has picked this up already and is chomping at the bit to help.

FWIW, quoting from two different posts requires faffing around with cut and paste - I don't recommend it. :roll: :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[MikeW]

...My previous attempts at sharpening had been using an old eclipse on 220, 400, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000 grit papers. I recently purchased the MK ll so I'll see if it makes a difference.

...George S

Hi George--Welcome!

Just a point of reference. If the sandpaper you are using is FEPA graded paper and not CAMI, then the 2000 grit paper being used is only 10 micron paper. This is basically the equivilent to a 1000 grit waterstone.

This is a bit coarse of paper to stop at. While the bevel may appear shiney, it is not as sharp as it could be.

If on the otherhand it is CAMI, you're good to go as an 8000 grit waterstone is roughly equal.

Many manufacturers in the US have begun switching to FEPA.

Take care, Mike

 

[hockeydad]

Mike W.,

I'm using 3M Imperial wet/dry. I'm pretty sure it must be CAMI beause a blade finished at 2000 grit is much more polished than one coming off of my King 6000 water stone, ( I gave up on stones because of the mess and constant need for flattening). Incidently, my final step in honing is 4 or 5 light strokes on the back of a CLEAN sheet of 2000 grit. I find that I don't get the 'dub over" effect that I get from leather and polish.

Thank you all for the kind welcome..

George S.

 

[Midnight]

Phew, I'm glad that's out of the way, I was quite convinced the L.N had developed an inferiority complex, being in the august company of those, er, other planes.(apologies to Bro. Michael Midnight of Aberdeen).

<drummin fingers..

an what time di ye call this t be draggin yer sorry carcus into a discussion c/w yer Mk1 stealth gloat..??? We do have some standards here.... someplace... surely....???

:wink:

btw no need to appologise on my account... my L-N's are earnin their keep quite nicely thankyou.. ;P

 

[engineer one]

couple of thoughts, from the engineering perspective, sorry alf,
but just occassionally we have some uses :lol:

any steel needs to go through two basic processes, hardening, and then annealing or tempering, to make them useable.

hardening gives one an edge, whilst annealing or tempering,
"takes the edge off", others call it stress releiving.
by reducing the hardness so that the metal will not splinter.


i do not think it is possible for the blade to be "soft" in the middle, and
hard on the edges, but it is possible that the annealing may have been
over enthusiastic, but surely LN would know by now and have sent out a message.

as for the sharpening, being a tormek man i guess my idea is slightly
warped from that of others like DC, none the less, i think the initial
concept of sharpness must be does it cut wood??

i wonder whether some people have problems because they do not
back off the "wire edge" often enough.

as a lowly starter in the high tech world of scary sharpening, i have not yet decided to use magnifying glasses to check my edges, just good old fashioned wood, which is why i sharpen in the first place.

i wonder whether there is a fundamental flaw in the earlier LN 41/2
since there seem to be more than one with this basic problem.

what about the side to side adjuster.
:?
paul :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

a) do folk actually look at what they have done when they hone or sharpen and b) do they test for sharpness and how is this done?

Yes, and I keep a piece of wood in one of my vices to test the plane before using it on the piece on which I am working. This not only tests for sharpness but also whether the cap iron, blade alignment, etc is set properly and that I am generally happy with the way the plane is cutting.

Same here

 

[bugbear]

My previous attempts at sharpening had been using an old eclipse on 220, 400, 800, 1000, 1500, 2000 grit papers.

Watch out for (unintended) camber; I use 3" wide SiC, and it wears more in the middle, leading to cambered blades (around 3 thou of camber).

I'm happy with this, but if you're not expecting it, it might confuse use.

If you use full sheet SiC, or replace it regulary, the cambering effect is greatly lessened

BugBear

 

[hockeydad]

Bugbear,

I use 1/2 sheet which is approx. 5 1/2" X 9". I work from the middle of the sheet to each corner then to each edge (side) in an attempt to prevent dubbing and unintended cambering. On the eclipse it's pretty simple to get a cambered profile and that's what I've been using until my new, "doodad", gets here from LV.

Alf,

I just got a chance to pull the the blade on the LN 4 1/2 and as son as I can make a judgement I'll post my results.

George S

 

[Paul Kierstead]

i do not think it is possible for the blade to be "soft" in the middle, and
hard on the edges, ...

See http://yarchive.net/metal/case_hardening.html for one description of case hardening, which is that effect. There it is done on purpose, but AFAIK, it can occur accidently as well.