Advantage of longer screwdrivers, more leverage or...?

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ED65

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Stumbled across this by accident just a couple of hours ago, this is from the Shop Notes in the February 1926 issue of Popular Mechanics.

As you can see it asserts that there is increased leverage screwing with a long handle as you can see, and the drawings seem to make sense:

p4coBwj.jpg
 
More leverage due to a fatter handle, nothing to do with the angle that makes no difference to the force applied to the screw.

To test this grind a screwdriver tip to 45 deg then try turning a screw, should be the easiest thing in the world it if correct.

Pete
 
There are several dodges to get 'more torque'. One is to apply an adjustable spanner to the flats of the screwdriver just above the screwhead, and turn the screwdriver with that. It's very easy to either shear off the screw shank, destroy the screw slot or destroy the screwdriver tip doing this. Don't ask how I know....

It's easier to grasp the handle of a longer screwdriver and turn it harder than one shorter and thus tighter up to the job, which may be the origin of the saying. As Pete suggested above, longer screwdrivers tend to have larger (fatter) handles, which will also help.

It's not true to say that two otherwise identical screwdrivers, one longer than the other, will inherently apply different torques. The torque comes from the operator, not the tool. The one that "applies more torque" will be the one that's easier to apply more twisting force to than the other, that's all.
 
With pozidrive screws and a good (right sized and not worn) bit and an extended and "locked out" large pump screwdriver (yankee) you can put enourmous torque onto a screw. Far, far more than any electric drill in screwing mode that I have ever used. It's why I stilll have two. You simply know it ain't ever coming loose! I don't think it's the size of the handle - that helps but a controlled "radius" that you can move the screwdriver in giving you better leverage (effectively an even larger hande). I don't think the same effect can be achieved with slotted screww.
 
The leverage may simply be down to a bigger handle, but a longer blade should make it less likely that the screwdriver will slip out and spoil the screw head. Simply logic (I think) - ideally the axis of the screwdriver should always be in line with the screw (vertical??). In use it is difficult to maintain precise axial alignment - a longer screwdriver will minimise any angular error.

Terry
 
Cheshirechappie":13huocia said:
There are several dodges to get 'more torque'. One is to apply an adjustable spanner to the flats of the screwdriver just above the screwhead, and turn the screwdriver with that. It's very easy to either shear off the screw shank, destroy the screw slot or destroy the screwdriver tip doing this. Don't ask how I know....

It's easier to grasp the handle of a longer screwdriver and turn it harder than one shorter and thus tighter up to the job, which may be the origin of the saying. As Pete suggested above, longer screwdrivers tend to have larger (fatter) handles, which will also help.

It's not true to say that two otherwise identical screwdrivers, one longer than the other, will inherently apply different torques. The torque comes from the operator, not the tool. The one that "applies more torque" will be the one that's easier to apply more twisting force to than the other, that's all.

Hello,

I don't agree with this. If torque came from the operator, then fitting an adjustable spanner to the screwdriver shank would make no difference. The operator supplies the force and torque is the distance that force is applied from the turning axis. Further from the axis, the greater the torque. Hence a bigger diameter handle will be able to apply more torque than a narrower one, and thus an adjustable spanner acting as a long lever will provide even more torque. A long screwdriver, slightly angled in the screw head, for the brief time it takes to move a stubborn screw increases the distance between the axis and applied force, so makes longer screwdrivers better for removing stubborn screws. Clearly, if the screwdriver continues to turn with the angle not normal to the screw head, it will cam out, but it only needs a degree or two to start the screw moving, and (hopefully) the screwdriver operator quickly corrects the angle of the screwdriver fir a more axial one.

This is not the same as grinding a 45 degree angle on a screwdriver tip, as someone suggested above, as that would mean the screwdriver would have to be used as a lever, since it could not rotate in the manner we know screwdrivers to work, it would immediately cam out. Angling a screwdriver with a flat tip from the turning axis is not the same as angling the screwdrivers tip.

Mike.
 
The axis of a screwdriver is down the centre you can't change, it so tilting the screwdriver won't increase the force applied.
A leaver needs a fulcrum and if the alleged fulcrum is out in space then you can't apply any force through it.
A screwdriver is a lever made by the difference between the width of the tip and handle.

Pete
 
I can remember having this discussion about 35 years ago with a work colleague.
While it may well be the case that a longer screwdriver gives better results for whatever reason, it obviously isn't because it amplifies the torque in some fashion. If this were true, all you'd need to do would be to lengthen the back axle(or the prop-shaft) of your car to some ridiculous extreme, and you could set a new world land speed record.
 
Pete Maddex":3dzhmlxl said:
The axis of a screwdriver is down the centre you can't change

Pete

Hello,

The axis of the turning force is down the centre, but the screwdriver blade is not necessarily in this axis, is it? In fact a screwdriver turned by hand is almost never along the normal axis, t wobbles around all over the place because humans cannot rotate their arms like a motor.

What I do know is, I have owned sets of screwdrivers over many years, that have stubby and medium and long length variants, with identical tip sizes, blade sections and handles. Can't remove a screw with a stubby, I almost always can with the long variant. There must be a reason, and this is as good a reason as any, though I'm sure the mechanics if it are much more complex in reality.

Mike.
 
I've always been a bit bemused by this one: longer screwdrivers certainly have their pros and cons depending on the specific situation, but how can the laws of physics possibly suggest that that longer = more torque? A fatter handle, yes, but only up to a certain point beyond which it gets harder to grip. What matters is that the humble cabinet handle is an ergonomic masterpiece and longer screwdrivers tend to have such a handle in the optimal size for the strongest grip.

Mike: the push factor is also important, so my guess is that longer screwdrivers allow more efficient upper arm leverage for pushing down on the screw.
 
woodbrains":qt1hrjde said:
Pete Maddex":qt1hrjde said:
The axis of a screwdriver is down the centre you can't change

Pete

Hello,

The axis of the turning force is down the centre, but the screwdriver blade is not necessarily in this axis, is it? In fact a screwdriver turned by hand is almost never along the normal axis, t wobbles around all over the place because humans cannot rotate their arms like a motor.


Mike.

The angle of the screwdriver doesn't affect the axis of the force. You can't leaver against fresh air.

Pete
 
Unless you're doing constructional work, torque isn't of itself the important thing.

The tricky bit is getting the torque from whatever is driving it (hand/arm or motor) to the pointy part, where the thread is being made through the wood fibres. The interface between screw and driver is critical to this - if the driver can't engage properly, or deforms the screw head or shaft, that's wasted energy. I'm sure we've all put a fresh battery in a powered screwdriver ready to go, and the first screw we try... whoops! Chewed head and it's start again time!

I prefer my long-handled screwdrivers, so much so that, when I lost one for electrical work, I spent over a year looking for a good replacement. Then I found it again, after I'd bought two to replace it!

They are better, especially with slotted screws, because they encourage you to work better. It's all down to angles: Some screw head designs will cope with a screwdriver used off-axis, such as Robertson, Torx and Pozidriv (to a slight extent). Others can be abused a bit but it does damage, such as Allen (hexagon) heads.

Most screws - straight slotted and Phillips being the most important for us - are designed to work with the driver dead-on on the axis of the screw, and performance drops off rapidly when it isn't.

This is the main reason why you get on better with a big screwdriver - you can see the angle of attack clearly, and any wobble distance at the handle has far less effect at the screwhead than it might with a stubby screwdriver. You can also grip the handle better, as your hand isn't obstructed by the thing you're working on, or your other hand holding the screw, or whatever. And it is probably true, too, that you can position your elbow to get better driving torque - with a shorter driver you often haven't got room off he work's surface to get hand and arm into the ideal position.

As I get older, my grip gets worse. Years ago, I always used to carry a stubby Phililps screwdriver around with me in my briefcase(!), for getting into equipment (when there wasn't time to call maintenance, boss!). Now I hate using the things.

Oddly, it's the same with power tools: I have a much better time using extended length driver bits in the screwdriver. I own a right-angled drill/driver too, and it's one of the most awkward things to use, mainly because it is so difficult to keep it straight on the screw head.

An aside: you're trying to get the power you produce through the head of the screw, to the pointy part, as efficiently as possible. I find diamond coated bits work really well for this, as they grip and don't cam out like ordinary bits do. It improves battery life, the bits last a lot longer, and they do a lot less damage to screwheads. They're so good, that I often use them hand-powered in a ratcheting handle, instead of with the powered driver.

So that's my three-and-fourpence-halfpenny...

E.
 
Hello,

I should do a drawing to illustrate, but I'm off out, so maybe later.

If you angle the screwdriver slightly, you are adding another axis of rotation described by the centre of the screwdriver handle about a point which has a radius equal to the distance the screwdriver is tilted from the screw axis. The longer the scewdriver, the longer this radius can be before the screwdriver tip cams out of the screw. This epicycle introduces a whole new torque system. The bigger the radius, of this epicycle, the greater the torque.

Mike.
 
A leaver needs a fulcrum, where is the fulcrum of an angled screwdriver?

Pete
 
Pete Maddex":dh7sxzsl said:
A leaver needs a fulcrum, where is the fulcrum of an angled screwdriver?

Pete

The obvious proxy test here is to use a socket set breaker bar (*), which will engage the nut
at all angles from fully on-axis to 90 degrees off it.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/8-Inch-Drive-S ... B002GQ8K6W

Clearly, at 90 degrees, the intended mode of use of a breaker bar, massive
torque is generated, and equally clearly, when fully on-axis, you're
going to struggle to turn a stubborn nut.

The interesting question, for the purpose of this thread, is can
a breaker bar generate useful additional torque when only (say) 3 degrees off-axis?

Anyone got a nice big socket set and can try this?

BugBear

(*) I didn't know they were called that, but google is my friend
 
Eric has summed up what I was trying to say about the slightly off-axis advantage from a long screwdriver, we are only talking a tiny "radius" as I described it. Additionally with pumps the bit is not completely solid in the socket so the tiny angling needed may well occur at that point leaving the bit stil absolutely engaged in the screw head but the rest of the screwdriver body slightly angled. I may test this theory later. Also, as mentioned, I was referring to my days in construction (a long while back) when pump screwdrivers were in very common in use. If I need that much force with woodworking something else is wrong!
Added: There is definitely a knack to getting this final power twist right with a fully extended big yankee!
 
A screwdriver is a hand tool and easily worked to the limit, where it either cams out or breaks the screw head. Any extra leverage would soon reach that point. Applying a spanner to the flat would soon wreck the driver or the screw.
The off-axis thing is a bit of a delusion - it helps if access is a problem but won't improve leverage - quite the opposite it'll take you nearer to the point of camming out.
The long screwdriver is simply more accurate and stable - as has been pointed out several times already, by several people!
 
I don't know about slotted screws as I haven't used them for 40 years but I have two Stanley Pozidrive screwdrivers, one standard and one long length. It is obvious in use that you can apply more pressure with the longer screwdriver but it's not immediately obvious why. I suspect it's something to do with the position of the arm in relation to the body. I prefer Torx or better still, Square screws though, they're much easier to drive as they don't cam out like pozidrive.
 

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