A&e visits

[RogerS]

I was referring to your post in quotes. I read it to mean that the public shift from Brexit to NHS was down to possible lack of faith in the Conservatives by some parts of the public. That's where I couldn't see a causal link.

Ok got it I think. Although I wasn't actually suggesting a link between anything, it was more a trail of thought. To summarise my original post:

- Public interest has shifted from Brexit to NHS (either because NHS crisis is a legitimate concern or, as you said, because they're bored of Brexit
- One could then assume that concern for the NHS consequently means fading support for Tories
- This is not the case; Tories still very popular
- Cue confusion

I think that it is all media driven and depends what is on the front page.

 

[RogerS]

How can the Tories be failing on Brexit, it hasnt happened yet? -of course its failing in the eyes of remainers it always will.

....

A 20% drop in sterling against the US dollar is a pretty good reason to say Brexit is failing.

 

[RobinBHM]

How can the Tories be failing on Brexit, it hasnt happened yet? -of course its failing in the eyes of remainers it always will.

....

A 20% drop in sterling against the US dollar is a pretty good reason to say Brexit is failing.

Exiting Europe is not going to happen overnight, the markets understandably are reacting to uncertainty. It is no proof that Brexit is failing at all.

 

[Jacob]

How can the Tories be failing on Brexit, it hasnt happened yet?

Cameron promised immediate implementation of article 50. Instead he resigned. So far nothing has happened. It's failing from whichever point of view you hold

-o...it is always easy to put the entire blame on the incumbent party.

That's because the remedy is in their hands. But it's not that simple - running down the NHS is tory policy

.....
The reality is that it is too big and too expensive to continue in its present form and we are seeing that the problems the NHS are facing are all ending up channelled towards A&E which cant cope.

It's still one of the cheapest in the civilised world and exceptionally good value. We spend far less per capita than the yanks do on their pathetic Medicare.
There is no good reason for saying the NHS is too expensive, unless of course you see health care for all as not worth paying for.

 

[Inoffthered]

How can the Tories be failing on Brexit, it hasnt happened yet? -of course its failing in the eyes of remainers it always will.

....

A 20% drop in sterling against the US dollar is a pretty good reason to say Brexit is failing.

The government has been printing money (QE) since the financial crash, devaluation and inflation are the inevitable result.
There is an argument that Sterling was overvalued anyway.

The Greeks would love to be able to devalue their currency but they can't, they are stuck in the Euro.

It is interesting to note however, that the Bank of England (through Carney who is a big Remainiac) now says that Brexit is not the biggest challenge facing the UK, but that Brexit is the biggest risk facing the EU economies. This could explain why now Project Fear has been exposed for the lie that it always was , have changed their tune somewhat saying that post Brexit the EU must still have access to London financial markets. The german auto industry and French agriculture will insist on a free trade deal.

Brexit will be a success.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

It's still one of the cheapest in the civilised world? There isn't another Country with the same system, so it cannot be judged against them. If it is such a success why are there another 195 Countries who do not copy it?
I rely on it very heavily - but I've seen far too much of it to believe that it is perfect.

 

[Jacob]

It's still one of the cheapest in the civilised world? There isn't another Country with the same system, so it cannot be judged against them. If it is such a success why are there another 195 Countries who do not copy it?
I rely on it very heavily - but I've seen far too much of it to believe that it is perfect.

Nobody would say it was perfect. But other countries all run national health services to some extent - some very similar to the NHS and some not.
It is not impossible to compare and contrast them. Start here http://www.economist.com/blogs/economis ... xplains-16 then google for more.

 

[Inoffthered]

It's still one of the cheapest in the civilised world? There isn't another Country with the same system, so it cannot be judged against them. If it is such a success why are there another 195 Countries who do not copy it?
I rely on it very heavily - but I've seen far too much of it to believe that it is perfect.

Nobody would say it was perfect. But other countries all run national health services to some extent - some very similar to the NHS and some not.
It is not impossible to compare and contrast them. Start here http://www.economist.com/blogs/economis ... xplains-16 then google for more.

Comparison of the spend per head is meaningless in isolation. When you compare outcomes and see how countries that spend less per head than the UK have better survival rates for strokes, cancers and heart attacks you realise that the NHS model may not be fit for the 21st century and the blind defenders of the NHS that refuse to acknowledge its shortcomings and just demand more money are the health service equivalent of Luddites.

 

[MarkDennehy]

Bit dangerous to go too far on either side of that pendulum swing though Fitzroy; there's an internet meme that goes around every few months, it's some kid on a tricycle mid-jump, saying "back when we were kids we did all these things that now are too dangerous, woooo....".

Thing is, the CSO (the statistics office in Ireland) releases mortality rates regularly here and someone looked it up. The child mortality rate (not infant mortality, which is strongly tied to maternal hospital care levels and so on, but child mortality, meaning basically toddler to teenager) back when we did all that fun stuff, was ten times what it is today.

I mean, there's being a worrywort, and then there's being ten times more likely to have to buy a small white coffin. So these days, I see that meme and I honestly think "y'know lads, I think you're forgetting some of the other stuff that went on back then..."

 

[RogerS]

.....
Brexit will be a success.

:-"

 

[RobinBHM]

To go back to the OP's point about A&E visits, whatever the cause, there is no doubt the result is that A&E departments are really in crisis.

Working in A&E deparyments must be very stressful and tiring, so It is terrible that staff face abuse from drunk people.

I see there is a campaign to make attacking medical staff a criminal offence (GEMS guard medical emergency staff)

http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/n ... -campaign/

 

[Jacob]

It's still one of the cheapest in the civilised world? There isn't another Country with the same system, so it cannot be judged against them. If it is such a success why are there another 195 Countries who do not copy it?
I rely on it very heavily - but I've seen far too much of it to believe that it is perfect.

Nobody would say it was perfect. But other countries all run national health services to some extent - some very similar to the NHS and some not.
It is not impossible to compare and contrast them. Start here http://www.economist.com/blogs/economis ... xplains-16 then google for more.

Comparison of the spend per head is meaningless in isolation. When you compare outcomes and see how countries that spend less per head than the UK have better survival rates for strokes, cancers and heart attacks you realise that the NHS model may not be fit for the 21st century and the blind defenders of the NHS that refuse to acknowledge its shortcomings and just demand more money are the health service equivalent of Luddites.

So what's you solution then? Sell it to Branson? Or Tesco?
NB defenders of the NHS are not blind, or stupid.

 

[RobinBHM]

Its too late Blair and Brown sold most of it years ago

 

[Fitzroy]

Bit dangerous to go too far on either side of that pendulum swing though Fitzroy; ..., shortened see above for full quote

I mean, there's being a worrywort, and then there's being ten times more likely to have to buy a small white coffin. So these days, I see that meme and I honestly think "y'know lads, I think you're forgetting some of the other stuff that went on back then..."

Oh I agree, it's not obvious, I just don't think you can separate the perception of service and success, from the social norms of the time. We want more, quality, service levels, rigour, investigation, etc etc that drive down illness, mortality etc etc but there seems to be an expectation we can have it at the same cost per head normalised for inflations yadiyay as in the day when far fewer people made 70, 80, 90 etc.

F.

 

[finneyb]

It is important to differentiate between the NHS as a Healthcare system and the NHS as the provider of care - there is a difference .

The NHS as a healthcare system is the best by far ie the compulsory insurance premium we all pay thro income tax does spread the load and is the most cost effective from an administrative viewpoint. I was watching CNN the other night about Obama's time in Office - Joe Biden, US Vice President, recently lost his 46 years old son to cancer - Michelle Obama offered to pay his medical bills if that would help. Do we want ill people to have financial worries as well as health worries? Our healthcare system is the best by far.

The NHS as a provider of care eg GP, Hospital etc is a mixed bunch, and so are the equivalents in US and other countries. We need to be careful that the press headlines eg delayed transfer to care actually applies to your locality - I'm told that locally we don't have a major problem in that respect, but of course only bad news gets a mention when the Press want to sell newspapers or cable subscriptions.

BBC Radio 4 prog NHS and Productivity http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b087rx6b is worth listening to it shows that there are moves a foot to get more efficient - the NHS as a care provider like any other non-health organisation can improve. Does the organisation you worked in get it right all the time - none I worked in ever did!

Brian

 

[Inoffthered]

Comparison of the spend per head is meaningless in isolation. When you compare outcomes and see how countries that spend less per head than the UK have better survival rates for strokes, cancers and heart attacks you realise that the NHS model may not be fit for the 21st century and the blind defenders of the NHS that refuse to acknowledge its shortcomings and just demand more money are the health service equivalent of Luddites.[/quote]So what's you solution then? Sell it to Branson? Or Tesco?
NB defenders of the NHS are not blind, or stupid.[/quote]


Oh dear Jacob I suggest that you re-read my comment. No where did I say that the defenders of the NHS were stupid but that is your tactic when you have no cogent argument, ascribe insults that were never made. It really is rather juvenile you know.

 

[RogerS]

I come back to my earlier post about nearly a quarter of the NHS budget being set aside/used for negligence claims. Is the NHS that bad? I don't think so. Are large sections of the population money-grabbing chancers ? Most certainly.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

A cousin when asked when he decided to become a lawyer replied that it was the day after his brother decided to become a doctor.

 

[finneyb]

I come back to my earlier post about nearly a quarter of the NHS budget being set aside/used for negligence claims. Is the NHS that bad? I don't think so. Are large sections of the population money-grabbing chancers ? Most certainly.

25% of the NHS budget for negligence claims - I don't think so !! NHS Litigation Authority costs, including the payment of claims is £2.6bn ie 2.5 % of the budget - someone got the decimal point wrong????
See NHS Litigation Authority Annual Report page 87 which is below http://www.nhsla.com/aboutus/Documents/ ... 014-15.pdf

2.5% while regrettable is reasonable for any organisation, people need to be compensated if they suffer a loss.
NHS Budget is approx. £ 115bn

Brian

 

[RogerS]

Sorry Brian but you are looking at the wrong figures. I did not say 'expenditure' and neither did the article I linked to.

The fact is that they have set aside £26 billion for claims and potential claims. Here it is in their financial figures.

When I originally posted I should, of course, have added "....and ambulance-chasing parasitical lawyers."