A bit controversial from CHT!!!

[SVB]

Just got the latest email newsletter from CHT

"Lie-Nielsen Tools in stock at Classic Hand Tools
We are now receiving our stock shipments from over the pond and yes we have seen the Chinese knock offs and no we will not be selling those. Imitation is flattery and slave labour is well,...er.. slave labour. "

Not sure about whether that is true, however, on a wider note I did wonder whether LN had been able to protect the improvements they had made to very old Stanley designs in any way or whether this was always a risk to their business model?

Anyway, clearly all are not happy!

S

 

[yetloh]

Highly unlikely that they could protect anything, after all what have they done? Just made them a to a higher standard with the odd minor mod but nothing that you could in any way call innovative or that moved the high quality plane game on. Yes, they are good tools but they are clearly vulnerable to areas with lower cost bases.

Whether or not the Chinese workers who make the copies are paid a living wage it is impossible to know. In my opinion, the best that those of us who care about these things can do is to support firms like Lee Valley/Veritas who really are making the effort and must surely have a more sustainable long term business model. Company's that move forward generally have a much better survival rate than those that stand still.

Jim

 

[Harbo]

Wrong use of words - not slaves but cheaper labour and if you do not stock them, you cannot sell them and compete with your original suppliers.

I'm afraid it's commerce and things can be produced cheaper where wages are less.
Recently M&S have been criticised for producing stuff in SriLanka where workers only get a few pence a day! It was supposed to be an approved "fairtrade "scheme?
Twinnings have moved their Tea production from Andover to Poland and I am sure Kraft will be moving production from Bourneville to somewhere cheaper asap?

Rod

 

[would not]

People who want a cheap plane will always buy a cheap plane.
People who want a quality plane will always buy a quality plane.

It's a bit different to say trainers, t-shirts and handbags were the consumers are buying the product name to impress rather than the product quality.

People in the UK moan about losing jobs and China etc... but then go down to the local retail park etc and buy the stuff from abroad!!! You can't have both....

 

[big soft moose]

People who want a cheap plane will always buy a cheap plane.
People who want a quality plane will always buy a quality plane.

It's a bit different to say trainers, t-shirts and handbags were the consumers are buying the product name to impress rather than the product quality.

People in the UK moan about losing jobs and China etc... but then go down to the local retail park etc and buy the stuff from abroad!!! You can't have both....

but with the QS planes you have both a decent price and decent quality - according to this months review in BWW their block is virtualy indistiguishable from the LN one

so on the quality front theres a difference between buying these from workshop heaven, and buying cheap crap in B&Q

 

[xraymtb]

People who want a cheap plane will always buy a cheap plane.
People who want a quality plane will always buy a quality plane.

But the planes in questions seemingly provide quality at what could be considered cheap when compared to LN or Veritas.

And I imagine most people here would buy the best they can afford - which is likely to be 'the Chinese knock-offs'.

EDIT: Beaten to it again...

 

[would not]

So you buy the cheapo's - Lie-Nielsen go bust and Mr Chinese guy doesn't know his *ss from his elbow and can't develope anymore tools.
That's why so many UK companies have gone bump and that's why it's in the state it's in, if all you do is import then your economy weakens and that's why China is getting richer and richer because they can't get the goods out of the country fast enough.

I remember years ago when the local farms sold veg to local people, then local supermarkets sold not so local veg to local people. Now were are the farms??
If for some reason we could no longer get the food imported into this country we'd all be eating pot noodles for breakfast,dinner and T.
It's all right buying Chinese knock offs but then you can't go and moan about the knock ons it has afterward.


Wait till these poorly paid Chinese workers aren't so poorly paid anymore and the price of your plane has shot up and the UK/USA companies are no longer with us- what you going to do then??

 

[Smudger]

When I was a kid (I mean early 50s) my parents used to scorn 'Made in Japan' as being cheapo copies. Which they were. But Japanese industry made money, invested in R&D and the next thing you know we don't have a motorcycle industry and German cameras are but a memory. But the killer products weren't copies, they were new developments.
Perhaps we'll see the same from China, after all the Japanese economic boom has been well described.

 

[lurker]

Would not - your arguement only holds true if you replace LN & LV with Clifton.

I love LN & LV stuff but so far as UK balance of payments (& UK jobs) go there is not an iota of difference between them & the chinese as they are all foriegn companies

 

[big soft moose]

So you buy the cheapo's - Lie-Nielsen go bust and Mr Chinese guy doesn't know his *ss from his elbow and can't develope anymore tools.

thats basically just racism - theres no particular reason why the chinese at QS should not be just as able to develop tools just as well as LN , certainly the quality of the QS doesnt indicate that they dont know their *** from their elbow. and especially as the LNs in question are not actually a new design just an update of the stanley bedrock

Your points about importing causing uk companies to go bump are a different question, and would be a good argument if we were talking about buying from clifton, or any other british company - but LN/LV are american/canadian and importing from north america is no better for the british economy than importing from china

it could also be argued that by producing quality tools at a decent price imports of QS are helping small british businesses like workshop heaven to survive by enabling them to compete with stanley/draper etc on both quality and price , CHT may come to regret excluding themselves from this market share.

 

[Max Power]

Well its great to see Classic hand tools have taken a stand and are not lured to the prospect of 30 pieces of silver for undercutting quality western companies. Dont let anyone selling the chinese rip offs pretend they are doing it for your benefit, they are doing it to enrich their own grubby paws at the expense of our jobs :evil:
I know who Ill be spending my money with :wink:

 

[eoinsgaff]

LN can copy the stanley planes because Stanleys protection has long expired. There fore any other company can do the same. In theory QS planes are copying the old Stanley ones rather than LN.

It does make one think that a company like veritas have positioned themselves better by being innovative. Still, their innovations will no longer be protected in 20 or 30 years.

 

[RogerS]

..... I am sure Kraft will be moving production from Bourneville to somewhere cheaper asap?

Rod

Most likely..I wouldn't trust Kraft very far as they are in business to make money. But don't forget

Cadbury is to chocolate what Kraft Dairylea is to cheese :wink:

 

[lurker]

Well its great to see Classic hand tools have taken a stand and are not lured to the prospect of 30 pieces of silver for undercutting quality western companies. Dont let anyone selling the chinese rip offs pretend they are doing it for your benefit, they are doing it to enrich their own grubby paws at the expense of our jobs :evil:
I know who Ill be spending my money with :wink:

As BSM has already pointed out thats just racism. I'm all for slagging off Jonny foreigner but lets be fair -

 

[Kalimna]

Alan - Im pretty sure those purveyors of quality western tools (most of which are made in North America and are themselves almost direct copies, or 'rip offs', of previous designs, Veritas innovations notwithstanding) aren't doing it for your benefit either. They are enriching their own grubby paws, albeit with a more expensive product.
You could very easily argue that Workshop Heaven is in fact doing this for our benefit, as they are providing a means to obtain a tool that is perhaps only marginally lower in quality, but significantly lower in price.

I know who I'll be spending my money on too - someone who gives excellent customer service and provides tools etc that are of a quality nature. And this runs the gamut from Axminster, to CHT to WH and independents such as Wenzloff and Blue Spruce.

Cheers,
Adam

 

[Max Power]

I live 20 miles from the town that once produced more ships than any other town in the world , I was brought up in the town that produced the steel work for Sydney harbour bridge neither have these industries now so lets not pretend that cheap foreign imports have no effect on our jobs

 

[lurker]

I live 20 miles from the town that once produced more ships than any other town in the world , I was brought up in the town that produced the steel work for Sydney harbour bridge neither have these industries now so lets not pretend that cheap foreign imports have no effect on our jobs

I'm inclined to agree but USA & Canada are not in the UK and would screw us quicker than the chinese.

 

[Kalimna]

Im sure no one is arguing that cheap imports dont have an impact om jobs, and a negative one at that. However, that is the way of commerce.
If the UK was able to produce ships and steel (having grown up a stones throw from Cammel Laird and the heavy industry of the cheshire plains) to the same cost as those foreign producers, then we would still have that industry. Having said that, isnt the UK still pretty high up the league of yacht builders?

And it appears (though this may not have been your intention) that you are criticising a small UK company (Workshop Heaven) for selling cheaper Chinese products and cheering on another smallish UK company (Classic Hand Tools) for not doing so. Did you happen to notice that WH sells Clifton Planes? About the only reputable plane maker still in the UK? (Im not considering Holtey et al, as they belong to a slightly different market!)

Adam
Adam

 

[big soft moose]

I live 20 miles from the town that once produced more ships than any other town in the world , I was brought up in the town that produced the steel work for Sydney harbour bridge neither have these industries now so lets not pretend that cheap foreign imports have no effect on our jobs

I'm inclined to agree but USA & Canada are not in the UK and would screw us quicker than the chinese.

and also its not just about cheap imports - expensive imports like LN/veritas/LV etc are actually having more of an impact on british jobs because they are in direct competition with clifton.

with the exception of the QS planes , the other propperly cheap chinese/easternimport planes like groz, annant, draper etc only are competing with each other because AFAIK there isnt a british company making cheap but crap planage.

 

[Max Power]

Bsm its only in the last couple of weeks that Clifton lost out on an order to you when you opted for a quangsh*** even though it wasn't costing you a penny, so I'm afraid cheap imports are a threat to Clifton. I bet they are less concerned about companies with similar overheads than they are by competitors with far lower wages