A bit controversial from CHT!!!

[beech1948]

I don't think I have seen so much crap written about any subject as has been seen in this thread. Insular, little Britain, inward looking etc etc.

1) Wages might be lower but to the Chinese worker they are earning a good living wage. They don;t live on watery noodles any more unless they are remote subsistence farmers.

2)If manufacturing is now portable then why not choose the lowest labour cost to the manufacturer.

2) Its now true that with few exceptions labour is the most expensive part of manufacturing. In the past the situation was determined by access to steel, to shipbuilding skills etc etc. That is now longer a limitation.

3) There appears to be a general assumption that the UK is towards the top of the standard of living curve. Thats only true if your a Brit. When I worked in Hong Kong and Singapor I could afford 6 servants, a 4 man gardening team and a chauffer. In Britain the cost of that would bankrupt me quickly. My domestic employees were paid above the local minimum wage and lived well both by local standards and UK ones.

4) The impact of high taxation on costs in the UK iobs underestimated. Consider petrol where 86% is tax and instead of paying 40p a litre we pay £1.15.

5) Consider the impact of high population density in the UK causing high rents, landlords to charge extortionate rents for commercial property.

6) Consider our current lower educational standards for which employees expect top whack in wages.

The truth is that the UK is a high tax, high cost, high wage environment with many employees who provide low productivity.

The only way back is for employers to increase wages and simultaneously increase productivity by 50%. Can't see that happening as most UK employees would call the Union the first time it was to be discussed and would be out on strike 2 weeks later.

My view of much that has been said in messages above is that it is poorly thought out tosh looking back at some overly sentimentalised view of the old world order.

Consider employers looking for real hard working responsible labour would rather hire Polish workers than a Brit.

Comments from Disgusted of Crowthorne.
regards
Alan

 

[wizer]

I've not yet read through this thread yet but here's my take on it. I have mixed feelings. My financial status forces me to consider what I spend my money on at the moment. But I also very much respect LN as, a company, and all the work they have done in the (mostly hobby) woodworking industry. I do feel awkward buying tools from a Chinese manufacturer (via WH) that has, without doubt and with great audacity, completely copied LN's designs. If LN was a massive faceless conglomerate like what Stanley and Irwin are now, then I'd not be particularly bothered. But knowing that I'm going to be meeting Mr LN next month and that he used to visit these forums, it seems wrong to stick two fingers up at all his work and go for the copy. In the same vein I had similar feeling when I used the spokeshave which, in the LN range, was designed by Brian Boggs. I'm not so much of a fan of Bogg's, more a worshipper! At the time I couldn't put my finger on what it was that didn't sit with with me when using that 'shave. Unboubtedly it was the fact that he'd designed it and a Chinese manufacturer has ripped it off. Not only ripped it off, but ripped it off really quite well. I must admit I've never bought replica\counterfeit clothes or trainers when visiting places like Thailand and so it makes me wonder why I'd even consider QS.

After thinking about it for some time I've decided that I'd like to do two things that doesn't help LN much but does help my conscience a little. From now on I'm going to stick with British planes. i.e Clifton. That said, at the moment I need a block plane (yes I actually need one) and so I'm going to go for the QS being that Clifton don't make one (yet). I'll not buy anything else from this range as I don't need to. If I want to buy a new plane in the future, I'll save and get the Clifton, because it's a special purchase and one thing I never want to see, is Clifton out of business.

So that's my slanted look on things.

 

[mr grimsdale]

Why is British industry worse affected by us buying Chinese tools rather than American or Japanese?
They aren't stealing LN designs. They weren't LNs in the first place and were well out of copyright. They are all Stanley copies, hadn't anybody noticed?
If anybody wants to make a stance about buying foreign goods then there are a vast range to choose from. Seems odd to get excited about woodwork tools particularly, unless you have already boycotted cars, clothes, shoes, electric goods, wines, many food items; a very long list is possible.

I've never bought replica\counterfeit clothes or trainers when visiting places like Thailand

Well of course not that (or other eastern or 3rd world country) is where all the genuine ones are made - have a look at the label in your trainers!

I'm pleased to see good quality tools at lower prices, I might even buy one one day.

 

[Anonymous]

I'd be very suprised if CHT are operating without using anything from China. Even if they aren't it's quite likely that LN are using something made in China while producing their planes or running their business. There is a very slight chance they are but I very much doubt it. Even if it is a company vehicle that has parts in that were made in China they're still using what they call 'slave labour'.

We're thousands of miles away and quite often our judgements on what we hear/read in the media. I wouldn't trust much I hear/read from the media.

Just my view. Quite happy to be proved wrong on any of it.

Dave

 

[Mr Ed]

I can't imagine that either LN or LV are under threat - they both offer products that people want and have large loyal followings.

In almost every commodity there are a variety of price points where you can pitch in, with a corresponding quality and brand image. People select where they want to be and purchase at that point - theres room for everyone. I doubt if LN or LV see themselves as being in competition with Quangsheng.

As Mr. G says, if your argument is an ideological one, you need to do it on all commodity streams not just woodworking tools.

Ed

 

[BradNaylor]

I'm in the market for a No 6 fore plane. The Quengsheng is £120, while a Clifton is £240 ish.

Considering that this is a tool I'll only buy once in my lifetime, and that hopefully it will outlast my son as well, the saving is hardly worth thinking about.

I'll stick with a Clifton and support British industry. Why I would want to favour American industry over Chinese is a bit of a mystery to me, though.

The suggestion by CHT that the Chinese workers are paid slave wages is ignorant and insulting. My experience of far eastern manufacturing facilities is that they pride themselves on how modern and efficient they are becoming. This includes good working conditions and by local standards, good wages.

If you can house, feed, and clothe your family for a dollar a day, then a dollar-fifty a day is a good wage...

 

[mr grimsdale]

And anyway the Yanks employ a huge army of illegal immigrants mostly mexicans who get low wages and no civil rights.

 

[big soft moose]

Bsm its only in the last couple of weeks that Clifton lost out on an order to you when you opted for a quangsh*** even though it wasn't costing you a penny, so I'm afraid cheap imports are a threat to Clifton. I bet they are less concerned about companies with similar overheads than they are by competitors with far lower wages

](*,) oh FFS ... i'm getting sick and tired of justifying this - the idea that it "wasnt costing me a penny" with the inference that i could therefore spend as much as i like is serioiusly flawed. True it wasnt coming out of my personal pocket but i have a proffesional responsibility to make the volunteers scheme budget go as far as possible - I was only ever going to buy a clifton (from axminster) because bureacracy was stopping me trading with workshop heaven , but matthew found a way of getting arround that . If I was buying out of my own money i probably would buy britishbut for work purposes i dont have that luxury ](*,)

also if you bothered to read my post properly rather you would see that I said apart from QS the cheap inports were no threat to clifton because they are in a different market. IMO a plane costing £120 is not "cheap" and therefore there is no difference betwen buying a QS or a LN veritas or LV in terms of the impact on the british market

unless you are seriously telling us that everything in your workshop is made in the UK I would suggest you get off your soap box and stop giving others a hard time when you are just a culpable.

 

[big soft moose]

But I also very much respect LN as, a company, and all the work they have done in the (mostly hobby) woodworking industry. I do feel awkward buying tools from a Chinese manufacturer (via WH) that has, without doubt and with great audacity, completely copied LN's designs.

Did they though ? - my understanding is that the QS range is an updated take on the stanley bedrock range which is now patent expired , as are the comparable LN models ( I realise there are LNs that arent stanley inspired but afaik QS havent copied those).

if they were ripping off innovative designs i would see your point but if they are just basically stanley bedrocks then i cant see that mr LN has much to be agreived about.

 

[Max Power]

Bsm I can honestly say there is nothing in my workshop that could have been fulfilled by a british equivalent of equal or higher quality . Unfortunately that means that I have plenty of imported machinery as the companies that used to manufacture it here are no longer with us . I wonder why?

 

[wizer]

But I also very much respect LN as, a company, and all the work they have done in the (mostly hobby) woodworking industry. I do feel awkward buying tools from a Chinese manufacturer (via WH) that has, without doubt and with great audacity, completely copied LN's designs.

Did they though ? - my understanding is that the QS range is an updated take on the stanley bedrock range which is now patent expired , as are the comparable LN models ( I realise there are LNs that arent stanley inspired but afaik QS havent copied those).

if they were ripping off innovative designs i would see your point but if they are just basically stanley bedrocks then i cant see that mr LN has much to be agreived about.

Brian Boggs Spokeshave was designed by him AFAIK, at least he says so on his DVD. LN did indeed use Stanleys old patents, but they improved and added to them and QS have directly copied LN's planes, not taken the Stanley patent and created their own take on them. These planes are more than similar, they are about 99% identical.

 

[jimi43]

I think we seem to forget that China has a culture far older than ours..far greater at its peak and has, since the "tempering" of communism, been highly successful in R&D.

Yes, they used to produce cheaply made "rip offs" (if that is what you want to call them) but now they are leaders in almost everything and are doing so for their economy.

If you want to take an "us and them" stance then try fighting it if you will...it will be like peeing against a hurricane! It is far too late to take that stance!

We need to be working towards partnerships because we CAN offer them our innovation, we can both benefit from their immense human and material resources and on this here spaceship which is so small...in this new millennium....we should be thinking this way....

Because if we think any other way....and be aggressive...I hate to imagine what the result will be.

Jim

 

[yetloh]

A few points:

1. We don't know anything about the production of QS planes. Those making them may well be paid a living wage but some Chinese products are made in the huge Chinese prison system under virtual slave conditions.

2. The argument that QS is copying LN is in my view specious. LN have added very little to the Stanley product apart from improved manufacturing quality and materials. One Boggs spokeshave doesn't make an innovative manufacturing ethos.

3. I don't understand the pejorative reference to Veritas' "grubby paws" by one poster. Is he suggesting that to seek to make a profit from innovative manufacture is somehow unworthy?

4. Leaving aside the point made in 1 above, there is clearly no more virtue in buying from one overseas country than another but, as I said right at the beginning of this thread, surely anyone caring about the development and improvement of tools has to admire Veritas. Yes, their innovations will run out of copyright but they are a company whose business model is one of continuous improvement and development; as such they are more likely to survive.

5. What worries me about Clifton is that they remind me of the British motorcycle industry of the '50s and '60s. If That industry had invested and innovated the Japanese would have had a much tougher time and we might still a significant bike industry now. Apart from the fact that they are British what does Clifton have going for it. My impression is that they work to wider tolerances than LN and Veritas. and innovate probably even less than LN. Who would buy Clifton over Veritas or LN if they were not British? Very few, I suggest.

Jim

 

[Dibs-h]

I don't think I have seen so much crap written about any subject as has been seen in this thread. Insular, little Britain, inward looking etc etc.

1) Wages might be lower but to the Chinese worker they are earning a good living wage. They don;t live on watery noodles any more unless they are remote subsistence farmers.

2)If manufacturing is now portable then why not choose the lowest labour cost to the manufacturer.

2) Its now true that with few exceptions labour is the most expensive part of manufacturing. In the past the situation was determined by access to steel, to shipbuilding skills etc etc. That is now longer a limitation.

3) There appears to be a general assumption that the UK is towards the top of the standard of living curve. Thats only true if your a Brit. When I worked in Hong Kong and Singapor I could afford 6 servants, a 4 man gardening team and a chauffer. In Britain the cost of that would bankrupt me quickly. My domestic employees were paid above the local minimum wage and lived well both by local standards and UK ones.

4) The impact of high taxation on costs in the UK iobs underestimated. Consider petrol where 86% is tax and instead of paying 40p a litre we pay £1.15.

5) Consider the impact of high population density in the UK causing high rents, landlords to charge extortionate rents for commercial property.

6) Consider our current lower educational standards for which employees expect top whack in wages.

The truth is that the UK is a high tax, high cost, high wage environment with many employees who provide low productivity.

The only way back is for employers to increase wages and simultaneously increase productivity by 50%. Can't see that happening as most UK employees would call the Union the first time it was to be discussed and would be out on strike 2 weeks later.

My view of much that has been said in messages above is that it is poorly thought out tosh looking back at some overly sentimentalised view of the old world order.

Consider employers looking for real hard working responsible labour would rather hire Polish workers than a Brit.

Comments from Disgusted of Crowthorne.
regards
Alan

I've been out to Mainland China - the factories were clean and impressive and that's not ones run by the Largest players - these were locally owned affairs. And I did visit quite a few whilst out there. What did astound me was the lack of "the world owes me a living" - as opposed to what you see here sometimes.

Yes there was poverty there as there is in most places - but slave labour in the factories - I don't think so.

Anyway back onto tools - you buy what you can need\want & whilst I would dearly love to support British industry - everything we buy on the weekly shop is as British as we can make it (even if a tad more expensive) but if British isn't available - what's the difference between QS and LN?

One speaks Chinese and the other English? The former is one of Us & the latter is the Other?

It's amazing how something like a hand tool raises so much more to the surface.

 

[jimi43]

Nice one Dib! Great to hear from someone who has actually been there and can let us know what it is like rather than sitting in a shed speculating about it based on what the media would have us think!

Excellent post!

Jim

 

[beech1948]

I have been to China on business trips and tp several cities and regions looking at manufacturing issues. Chinese corporations are much like European ones in terms of quality, H&S, volumes and policies except for cultural differences.

It does not matter to me if the goods were made in Birmingham, the US, Canada or even Timbuktoo as the impact on UK manufacturing is only on competitiveness.

UK manufacturing has reduced because most of the owners managers were too backward, too unskilled and inexperienced and complacent. Clifton will survive if it innovates, has sound clever managers who are aware of their markets and the pressures on them.

Its no good moaning about cheap labour, poor regulation etc etc the owner managers have simply to get on with it and find a solution. The principle answers lie in two directions innovation and very high levels of productivity.

I mention productivity because that is the main way that a UK high wage economy can compete against low wages.

regards
Alan

 

[big soft moose]

Nice one Dib! Great to hear from someone who has actually been there and can let us know what it is like rather than sitting in a shed speculating about it based on what the media would have us think!

Excellent post!

Jim

I'd second that and i'd also note that for those saying that it is slave labour this doesnt say much about your oppinion of mathew from workshop heaven - do you really think he'd buy products made in virtual concentration camp conditions just to turn a quick profit, or that he would fail to research the background of his supliers ???

 

[Mikey R]

I dont know if anyone else has noticed this irony, we're discussing this whilst typing on machines made from parts almost entirely manufactured in Asian factories.

I guess Cliffton, LN and LV are luxury goods for most of us hobyists. As such, they are less likely competing against each other and more likely competing against other luxury goods. If I upgrade my mobile and take the £X a month contract, I'll have less to spend on tools for the next 2 years.

Things like flat screen TVs, ipods, mobile phones, and any number of gadgets, could not be manufactured in the UK and be competitive on price.

 

[Alf]

I dont know if anyone else has noticed this irony, we're discussing this whilst typing on machines made from parts almost entirely manufactured in Asian factories.

Oh, believe me, I had. I think the jingoist issues of 'slave labour' and 'them and us' and the sticky moral conundrum of importing from North America vs China have probably been covered. We could take it all the way and realise we probably shouldn't be using any wood at all I suppose, which would leave LN with only the display case collectors to cater for. And you'll notice no-one's ever felt they needed to point out the low wages of employees in the Groz and Anant factories? Because the resulting product is bloomin' awful and no threat. Pretty telling really. My simple request is that CHT and others confine themselves to laying out why the LNs et al are better and let the woodworker make up their own flippin' mind. If I want sanctimony, I'll go to church.

 

[big soft moose]

And you'll notice no-one's ever felt they needed to point out the low wages of employees in the Groz and Anant factories? Because the resulting product is bloomin' awful and no threat. .

too right - also to be fair afaik LN themselves arent commenting on the wages at QS - that seems to be coming from CHT only , and for all we know might be motivated by sour grapes that WH beat them to the punch on importing QS.

what i want to know tho is why stanley themselves cant make a decent stanley bedrock at a reasonable price anymore. I believe the new stanleys are made in china too so its not wage competition, so why cant they achieve what QS can ?

If they had and they were suddenly in competition with LN etc again no one could say a blessed thing as it was their design in the first place.