A bit controversial from CHT!!!

[jimi43]

I think they are made in Detroit out of recycled, recalled Toyotas BSM!



Jim

 

[wizer]

If I want sanctimony, I'll go to church.

Amen Sister!

Sorry, couldn't resist!

 

[Max Power]

Yetloh, Who would buy a Clifton in preference to a Lie Nielsen or Veritas ?
The type of person who appreciates the aesthetics as well as the function of an object . The Clifton is by far the best looking of the three while Veritas hand planes are "plain ugly" Not that i'm advocating buying a plane purely for it looks, I own Lie Nielsens have tried Veritas planes and prefer my Cliffies. I spent 25 yrs as a professional woodworker so consider myself a decent judge of the performance of tools.
I doubt whether Clifton will be too concerned about cheap planes ,as the main proportion of their turnover is in tooling for the aircraft industry but it would be a shame if the woodworking side was to become too small to be bothered with.
Something which has not been mentioned is the residual value of a tool, most of your money can be recouped on a Lie Nielsen , Veritas or Clifton, I wonder how much one of the Quang planes will be worth in a couple of years time. If the other cheap planes are anything to go by not a lot

 

[Max Power]

Bsm, I understand the bodies of the new Stanleys are made in Mexico and the blades in the UK

 

[big soft moose]

Bsm, I understand the bodies of the new Stanleys are made in Mexico and the blades in the UK

okay fair enuff but the point remains, mexicans arent inherently lazy or unskilled either so why can't stanley get their act together to make a good plane anymore.

 

[big soft moose]

Something which has not been mentioned is the residual value of a tool, most of your money can be recouped on a Lie Nielsen , Veritas or Clifton, I wonder how much one of the Quang planes will be worth in a couple of years time. If the other cheap planes are anything to go by not a lot

but if they are such good planes why would you want to sell them ? we keep hearing the justification for buying them that they are heirloom tools which is inconsistent with this.

also if you buy a plane for circa £230 then sell it for arround £160 (the price i saw a clifton 6 go for on ebay) then you have dropped £70 notes

so to make a greater loss on a QS which retails at £120 , you would have to sell it for less that 50 which doesnt seem likely - the second hand value of cheap planes like groz and annant is not a good indicator for the far superior QS

 

[Max Power]

The point I was trying to make Bsm is that the REAL cost of ownership of a top quality item is probably lower, so in the long term makes far more sense financially

 

[Dibs-h]

Sometimes I just can't help but laugh. All said and done it's a fu*king plane! Is it me or are a few folk missing that. Heirloom - my @rse. That's a bit "Patek Phillipe - you don't own one but merely look after it for the next generation" bullsh!t.

Want an hierloom tool - buy a one from Sauer & Steiner or some 100 yr old dovetail plane.

These are tools used to produce stuff - a means to an end, can't help but find it dead funny just how much of pissing contest this sort of thing turns into. Not aimed at anyone - but in the car world the one prattling one about how much BHP his car churns out is usually the crappest driver and has the smallest .........!

As for having a dig at Matthew - that's a bit too far. I haven't bought much from Matthew, but by far the best service I've had from a tool supplier. And if he's chooses to sell QS - I find it sour grapes and more importantly very, very unprofessional from CHT to bullsh1t on about slave labour - from what I've read QS aren't produced in Burma nor in a Chinese Prison camp - so the point is what exactly.

 

[Mr Ed]

Heirloom - my @rse. That's a bit "Patek Phillipe - you don't own one but merely look after it for the next generation" bullsh!t

I agree the 'heirloom tools' bit is a fairly pretentious strapline to have. However the idea that LN tools have enduring value is valid, as I have sold a number of LN plane for little less than I paid.

Ed

 

[big soft moose]

Sometimes I just can't help but laugh. All said and done it's a fu*king plane! Is it me or are a few folk missing that. Heirloom - my @rse. That's a bit "Patek Phillipe - you don't own one but merely look after it for the next generation" bullsh!t.

I get that - all my tools are there to be used - ileave the heirloom nonsense to the collectors

Not aimed at anyone - but in the car world the one prattling one about how much BHP his car churns out is usually the crappest driver and has the smallest .........!

and the oposite is often true of those who drive an unassuming middle of the road car, and are secure enough in their masculinity not to need to demonstrate it

As for having a dig at Matthew - that's a bit too far. I haven't bought much from Matthew, but by far the best service I've had from a tool supplier. And if he's chooses to sell QS - I find it sour grapes and more importantly very, very unprofessional from CHT to bullsh1t on about slave labour - from what I've read QS aren't produced in Burma nor in a Chinese Prison camp - so the point is what exactly.

Indeed - mathew is showing commendable self restraint in not firing back at them - its difficult to believe that nothing CHT sell is sourced in the far east or other developing economies.

 

[big soft moose]

Heirloom - my @rse. That's a bit "Patek Phillipe - you don't own one but merely look after it for the next generation" bullsh!t

I agree the 'heirloom tools' bit is a fairly pretentious strapline to have. However the idea that LN tools have enduring value is valid, as I have sold a number of LN plane for little less than I paid.

Ed

fair enough - but like i said, if they were such wonderous tools, doubtless forged at the foot of ydgrasil by virgin dwarves as some would have us believe, why did you sell them ?

 

[big soft moose]

its also odd that this

We are now receiving our stock shipments from over the pond and yes we have seen the Chinese knock offs and no we will not be selling those. Imitation is flattery and slave labour is well,...er.. slave labour. "

doesnt exactly gibe with this (from the CHT website)

There are many mass produced woodworking planes out there and most of these now originate from China or India. If all you need is a woodworking plane to use once every year or so then maybe that is the route you should take as there are considerable savings to be made. However be prepared to spend quite a lot of time getting the plane to work as you would like

surely if their first post alledges that chinese knock offs are made by slave labour, doesnt the second one endorse that by suggesting that this is the route DIY ers etc should take.

it strikes me that someone didnt think it through properly before pressing send on the email newsletter

 

[wizer]

 

[mr grimsdale]

..However the idea that LN tools have enduring value is valid, as I have sold a number of LN plane for little less than I paid.

Ed

Not for much longer - they are going to have to compete with Quang (sh you know who) :shock:
Of course Stanley also might still come up with the goods, though this looks unlikely.

 

[Mr Ed]

Heirloom - my @rse. That's a bit "Patek Phillipe - you don't own one but merely look after it for the next generation" bullsh!t

I agree the 'heirloom tools' bit is a fairly pretentious strapline to have. However the idea that LN tools have enduring value is valid, as I have sold a number of LN plane for little less than I paid.

Ed

fair enough - but like i said, if they were such wonderous tools, doubtless forged at the foot of ydgrasil by virgin dwarves as some would have us believe, why did you sell them ?

Because as you develop your skills you realise that the tools you first bought may not suit the way you work. I bought a LN no.5 but realised I preferred a 5.5; the 5 worked fine just not what I wanted. Same comments apply to 2 shoulder planes and a scraper plane - they all worked well but did not fill the precise requirement I had.

When you buy tools initially you go on the recommendations of others, but as experience grows you can judge yourself what you need and don't need. If your tools have enduring value you can go through that learning process without losing a lot of money.

Ed

 

[yetloh]

Yetloh, Who would buy a Clifton in preference to a Lie Nielsen or Veritas ?
The type of person who appreciates the aesthetics as well as the function of an object . The Clifton is by far the best looking of the three while Veritas hand planes are "plain ugly" Not that i'm advocating buying a plane purely for it looks, I own Lie Nielsens have tried Veritas planes and prefer my Cliffies. I spent 25 yrs as a professional woodworker so consider myself a decent judge of the performance of tools.
I doubt whether Clifton will be too concerned about cheap planes ,as the main proportion of their turnover is in tooling for the aircraft industry but it would be a shame if the woodworking side was to become too small to be bothered with.
Something which has not been mentioned is the residual value of a tool, most of your money can be recouped on a Lie Nielsen , Veritas or Clifton, I wonder how much one of the Quang planes will be worth in a couple of years time. If the other cheap planes are anything to go by not a lot

Aesthetics are, of course, a matter of opinion. To my eyes, the LNs are better looking than the Cliftons and, as I said earlier, from looking at quite a few of each my impression is that both LNs and Veritas are made to finer tolerances. The looks of Veritas planes are very much a variable feast. In my view this has been the one area of weakness in the Veritas product line. However, for me the new NX/DX60 block planes are real lookers and beautifully functional. If they can keep up this standard then they will have all bases covered and a bright future whatever the Chinese do. I know designs like these will not appeal to some traditionalists but for me it is about moving forward to something better.

The question of residual values is an interesting one. I can't help but agree that the secondhand buyer will always go for one of the three established makers rather than a QS.

On the general point about selling Chinese goods I am right behind Matthew, he has to make a living. I well remember Which?, the consumer magazine, taking stick for recommending Japanese cars. It argued that it could only recommend the best value product and that to push an inferior or overpriced UK product would do UK industry no favours. They were right then and the principle is as valid now as it was 30 yeares ago. It is up to the consumer to decide.

Jim

 

[big soft moose]

The question of residual values is an interesting one. I can't help but agree that the secondhand buyer will always go for one of the three established makers rather than a QS.

not necessarily especially when you consider that a new QS costs less than the comparable second hand big 3 - which is the downside of residual value , if they dont drop much in price a lot of people cant afford them even second hand !