.

[Spectric]

I would say her lights are on but there is no one at home. I think she models herself on this character, just a shame she is missing the zip and wearing a russian hat is not doing her any favours but perhaps she is starting to feel left out in the cold in parliament .

 

[Fergie 307]

Well iffen we are going to pay nurses better, how about addressing the issues with underperforming nursing and medical staff, plus those lying off on the sick, this at all levels, they are as bad as the Police in covering up neglect and malpractise.
This from first hand observations by myself and my wife, while my wife had 4 replacement joint operations and I was in with pancreatitis.
Generally gaggles of nurses all "gassing" away, round the nurses station, but "too busy" to attend to patient needs.

of course there will be malpractice, laziness and so forth in any profession, can you thereby infer that it is the norm? I have found some of the recent scandals around maternity care, blood products and so on truly sickening. But I firmly believe that they are the exception. Unfortunately far too many in the Police, the Army and the Medical profession, to make just a few, have a vested interest in covering these things up. Never seems to occur to them that, however painful it may be in terms of reputational damage etc at the time, it is better to address them head on and be seen to take appropriate action. If you cover up then the likelihood of doing so successfully is pretty remote. When the truth emerges you then have not only the damage from the original scandal, but also the additional damage from being seen to have covered it up.

 

[Jacob]

You cannot blame the education system for everything,

You can blame it for the incompetent and dim-witted old Etonians wielding power over us!

 

[Fergie 307]

I would say her lights are on but there is no one at home. I think she models herself on this character, just a shame she is missing the zip and wearing a russian hat is not doing her any favours but perhaps she is starting to feel left out in the cold in parliament .


View attachment 145044

You can certainly see why many conservatives would have preferred to have kept Boris. Not a sentiment I share but my goodness have they scored an own goal with her!
High time the other lot had a go, they can't be any worse, can they

 

[Spectric]

High time the other lot had a go, they can't be any worse, can they

We do have a massive skills shortage in the Uk and this can clearly be seen in politics, it gets worse in the house of lords where they don't even need to be elected to sit there. What we want is something like the lottery machine where you put all of the politicians from all parties in and then let it chuck out at random the number required to form a government so you end up with a more balanced mob where you get a lot more variation in backgrounds and experience without any of them trying to toe the party line at all cost. The current system is not broken because that could be fixed, it is totally shattered and needs a serious overhaul. One solution would be mandatory voting and a proportional representation system.

 

[Jacob]

.... He is now a multi millionaire with a Ferrari and an Aston Martin in the garage. ....

You see these as signs of success? I see them as signs of having too much money and reduced to spending it on big toys. An eminent case for severe increase of taxation! The money could be far better spent elsewhere.

 

[Fergie 307]

I didn't say that at all. What I do say is that if they have the money they should pay the taxes.

Dear oh dear, another right-wing media cliche! Are you going to accuse me of being "woke" too? Are yours the politics of cliches? Thick Lizzy's certainly are!

Glad to hear it!

I agree entirely that the rich should pay their taxes like everyone else, which is why we need a radical shakeup of our tax system. The fact that the Jimmy Carrs of the world can come up with convoluted, but perfectly legal, ways of essentially paying no tax at all is a disgrace. If you could bang a few of them up for a few years, together with their advisors, so much the better. Same applied to corporations engaged in similar schemes. Where I suspect we will disagree is that I don't see any reason why someone successful should pay a significantly greater proportion of their income in tax, which is what I believe you are advocating. A modest increase above a certain level, fair enough, as we have now. But we need to give much more emphasis on actually collecting what is due. To do that we need to make things simpler, and invest more in enforcement. Maybe a mandatory fine of ten times the amount evaded, and a lengthy spell at his majesty's pleasure, I dare say we can agree on that if nothing else

 

[D_W]

what we get for politicans, both there and here, are a big byproduct of the fact that education has lost a lot of its pragmatism and focus on outcomes.

Which is a tool that both the poor and not so cognitively inclined folks could be taught - it doesn't take cognitive wizardry. Chart where you are, what you're going to do, what the outcome is and change what you expect to be what creates good outcomes.

it literally could be done in 5 minutes per day - we often don't remember the outcomes of things or link them well - it's a human loophole of some sort.

But writing them and linking things together ...

....well, that's helpful in real life, and it sure would be helpful in getting a realistic assessment of outcomes from politics....along with removing some of the nonsense in explaining away failures as caused by someone else. One group gets poorer, the other gets richer (an individual blaming others for failures becomes poor - the politician becomes rich. But that hides that the politician isn't viewing the outcome of their policies or accomplishments as the outcome - they're viewing whether or not they can get people to believe something from them is better just because it comes from them).

 

[Jacob]

....I don't see any reason why someone successful should pay a significantly greater proportion of their income in tax, which is what I believe you are advocating.

It's because they have more money than they need.
These things are quite simple really.

.. But we need to give much more emphasis on actually collecting what is due. To do that we need to make things simpler, and invest more in enforcement. Maybe a mandatory fine of ten times the amount evaded, and a lengthy spell at his majesty's pleasure, I dare say we can agree on that if nothing else

Yes I agree. And higher taxes. Also a tax on land itself would be good - you can't stash it away in an overseas bank account.

 

[D_W]

You can blame it for the incompetent and dim-witted old Etonians wielding power over us!

I would imagine butt-on-couch fantasizing about ideals has a lot more to do with who is "having power wielded over them".

 

[Spectric]

Everything is out of proportional and we know the system is broken when a skilled surgeon earns way less than some herbert whose only mission in life is to kick a ball into a net, providing the weather is ok.

 

[Fergie 307]

You see these as signs of success? I see them as signs of having too much money and reduced to spending it on big toys. An eminent case for severe increase of taxation! The money could be far better spent elsewhere.

And please tell me how, in relative terms, this is any different to you or I buying a nice lathe for example. Probably similar outlay in terms of a percentage of our financial worth, and in both cases something for our enjoyment rather than a necessity. Why should you or I be able to spend our disposable income for our own enjoyment and he cant? I can remember we'll when I bought my first half decent SLR camera. I didn't need it, I wasn't going to earn my living using it, I just enjoyed photography. That was 50 years ago, and I think it cost 20 odd quid. Now I am wealthier so I can afford bigger and better toys, my wife and I have just spent a five figure sum on a caravan for example. So why should the state be able to determine what I spend my money on, or be able to decide whether the things I enjoy are frivolous and so should be denied me?

 

[Fergie 307]

Everything is out of proportional and we know the system is broken when a skilled surgeon earns way less than some herbert whose only mission in life is to kick a ball into a net, providing the weather is ok.

Bad I agree, although there is at least some skill involved. Far worse in my view are those who are able to make a fortune by just televising or streaming every aspect of their, in many cases fairly meaningless, existence. The Kardashians spring to mind.

 

[D_W]

Everything is out of proportional and we know the system is broken when a skilled surgeon earns way less than some herbert whose only mission in life is to kick a ball into a net, providing the weather is ok.

I'm not sure that's a good gauge of out of whack, it's just evidence of what people will pay for.

 

[Jacob]

And please tell me how, in relative terms, this is any different to you or I buying a nice lathe for example.

In relative terms extremely far apart. Compare the price of a lathe to a Ferrari. My lathe cost £100.

Oddly enough we just saw a line of Aston Martins passing as we came back from the shops. Must be a club meet or something. Instantly reminded me of rich kids in pedal cars somehow.

 

[Marcusthehat]

Jacob,
No chips, rather a small farm upbringing where there were no excuses or free lunches, like working in the bottom of a sheaugh, installing drain pipes, while the Rds Service van sat the other side of a hedge, with the blokes sitting in,"because it was too wet to work" and seeing this "ethos" replicated down through the years across all Government or Council organizations I encountered(the Rivers Agency were the absolute worst btw). In hindsight I should have realized I could not make any changes for the better much sooner than I did. Being matey and able to discuss the football, or being a member of the right lodge, was much more important than being a productive employee(I was a supervisor btw)
There was ALWAYS a gaggle of Council staff "discussing" how to proceed, instead of getting on with work. Like 4 of them, including a mechanic, and the tractor driver failing to dismount a Quickie tractor loader, that I then took off in minutes myself, and safely.
I had never encountered a Quickie loader before, but grasped the basic principles, cos they were simply so blinking obvious. Like fold down legs and hydraulics with extra long hoses
There were multiple other equally frustrating examples of wanton stupidity and non productivity.
Marcus.
P.S.
I can make mistakes and break stuff too, I am not claiming to be all seeing perfect, but the level of undisclipined neglect, misuse and damage in the Council was appalling, to me at least. But they just kept fixing the broken stuff or buying new stuff.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob,
No chips, rather a small farm upbringing where there were no excuses or free lunches, like working in the bottom of a sheaugh, installing drain pipes, while the Rds Service van sat the other side of a hedge, with the blokes sitting in,"because it was too wet to work" and seeing this "ethos" replicated down through the years across all Government or Council organizations I encountered(the Rivers Agency were the absolute worst btw). In hindsight I should have realized I could not make any changes for the better much sooner than I did. Being matey and able to discuss the football, or being a member of the right lodge, was much more important than being a productive employee(I was a supervisor btw)
There was ALWAYS a gaggle of Council staff "discussing" how to proceed, instead of getting on with work. Like 4 of them, including a mechanic, and the tractor driver failing to dismount a Quickie tractor loader, that I then took off in minutes myself, and safely.
I had never encountered a Quickie loader before, but grasped the basic principles, cos they were simply so blinking obvious. Like fold down legs and hydraulics with extra long hoses
There were multiple other equally frustrating examples of wanton stupidity and non productivity.
Marcus.
P.S.
I can make mistakes and break stuff too, I am not claiming to be all seeing perfect, but the level of undisclipined neglect, misuse and damage in the Council was appalling, to me at least. But they just kept fixing the broken stuff or buying new stuff.

I've done a fair bit of labouring too. Pick, shovel, barrow. Amongst other things, digging out deep foundation pits for a steel works. JCBs were not that common then (about 1963). Very hard work but you soon got to see why labourers are often seen standing about - firstly because it would be impossible to work that hard continuously and secondly there's always something else going on, such as waiting for the foreman or a surveyor to have a look.
I've also worked on farms - they had their first muck spreader but nothing to load it with except me! Several hours of slippery hard labour. drive it out and empty it in about 10 minutes, back for the next load. Very non productive though I was working very hard all the time except when actually driving the tractor. They previously had been spreading by horse and cart, for the last time ever, with little heaps spaced about, left over winter. My other job was to go out with a muck fork and spread these heaps. Shovel full in the air and swipe it like a tennis racket.
So I utterly sympathise with labourers leaning on shovels. Good luck to them.

 

[Fergie 307]

I think the problem with Jacob's argument regarding taxation is quite simple. If you tax people at a level they find unacceptable, then they won't willingly pay their dues. They will either find ways of avoiding it, fixable through better laws and enforcement, or simply leave for somewhere with a level of taxation they find more agreeable. In the latter case you not only lose the higher rate contribution, but all their tax revenue. If they are the entrepreneurial type them their capacity to generate wealth will be undiminished, but the value that creates will be fuelling someone else's economy rather than our own. Add the fact that whatever business they created may not do as well, or even fail entirely without their direction and you lose even more revenue. The facts are fairly simple in that even now, with our very poor tax system and enforcement, a relatively small proportion of the wealthiest in our society generate a disproportionately large slice of our tax income. Fix the loopholes so that those avoiding paying their dues can no longer do so, and that will go up even further both in overall and percentage terms. Some may consider even 45% to be unacceptable if they had to pay it, and might leave, I suspect the majority would grin and bear it.

 

[Fergie 307]

I've done a fair bit of labouring too. Pick, shovel, barrow. Amongst other things, digging out deep foundation pits for a steel works. JCBs were not that common then (about 1963). Very hard work but you soon got to see why labourers are often seen standing about - firstly because it would be impossible to work that hard continuously and secondly there's always something else going on, such as waiting for the foreman or a surveyor to have a look.
I've also worked on farms - they had their first muck spreader but nothing to load it with except me! Several hours of slippery hard labour. drive it out and empty it in about 10 minutes, back for the next load. Very non productive though I was working very hard all the time except when actually driving the tractor. They previously had been spreading by horse and cart, for the last time ever, with little heaps spaced about, left over winter. My other job was to go out with a muck fork and spread these heaps. Shovel full in the air and swipe it like a tennis racket.
So I utterly sympathise with labourers leaning on shovels. Good luck to them.

Been there, done that. You're right damn hard work. First encounter with a muck spreader was quite an eye opener. Only lasted as long as it took one of my so called mates to think it very funny to turn the thing on full tilt whilst I was in the firing line!

 

[Terry - Somerset]

It's entirely clear that our political leadership and driving philosophies should come principally from the ill-educated working class. Evidence of intellect or talent is not a requirement, only a fixed belief that inequality, personal wealth, inherited wealth and choice are to be eliminated.

That little or no evidence exists that any society has flourished in the long term under such beliefs misses the point. They are morally justified and thus dogma trumps reality.

I can't imagine what would drive a parent to seek the best education for their children. Funding for class sizes of no more than 15, budgets for participation in sport and the arts, extra coaching for those who have difficulty with some subjects is unacceptable unless universal.

Similarly, health care provided by the best trained professional physicians and nursing staff should be available to all unconstrained by waiting lists and a lack of resources. There would then be no need for private healthcare.

Along similar lines, and in the interests of equity, Caribbean holidays, fillet steak, Bentleys, en-suite bathrooms and other trivia associated with the unfairly moneyed should be made illegal until all can enjoy.

Is this a desirable realistic prospect or an unattractive, unrealistic, unattainable, aspiration.

A purely personal view - irrespective of the moral arguments, of which I am anyway doubtful, it is an unworkable fantasy. It has been proven to work nowhere. It runs counter to behaviours which tend to drive progress (good and bad).

I am firmly on the side of personal responsibility and freedom of choice, providing the basic needs of those less fortunate are provided for. I would happily pay for private education, faster healthcare, nicer holidays for myself and family if I had the wherewithal so to do and defend the right of those who "have" to spend it as they wish.