XR

[Dokkodo]

Why is that? I am genuinely interested.

If you have to ask, you haven't read my response properly and will not understand the answer.

hmm? maybe you are right, i didnt understand your answer. I tried to address both the sides of what you seem to be saying though. on the one hand, you seem to suggest you don't believe what the international scientific community is saying, on the other you are agreeing that damage has been done and in fact it is too late anyway because the world is overpopulated. which is it?

Anyway, I still dont see how any of that is an argument against engaging the greatest threat to our and countless other species of this geological age.

Unless youre a nihilist who thinks bring it on, lets risk knocking all known life back to 3% of its current biodiversity, should take a good few hundred million years to recover but that the hell. But i doubt it?

Debate - Let's start by hearing what actions YOU intend to take to reduce the effects of climate change. And I mean YOU not the Govt. Civil Disobedience excluded which does nothing except use resource and is basically an ineffective tool used by students before they grow up.

Brian

Hello Brian. Ok well if you want to put the whole global ecological collapse on my shoulders: I have given up eating meat, I will not be having children until I am sure things are even remotely stable, which I think you will agree is a fairly major sacrifice, I try in every way to reduce my waste at home and work - in fact, I stopped working in the much more lucrative and horrendously wasteful industry of film and TV construction because I don't believe in it, I try to shop organic and do all the small things as much my means allow and the society I live in facilitates. I take an active interest in these things, rather than shutting them out because I dont like the sound of them, and its hard work (like now). I vote green. I don't fly. I am actively planning how to start growing food, involving myself in community and developing networks of local production, because that is (again, a UN report, so maybe you think this is more BS) the only way that agriculture can continue and we can keep eating, since we have reportedly 40-60 harvests left until we have completely depleted the intensively farmed land. Remember "dig for victory"? Well, thats on its way back, except now its "dig for survival".

In the spirit of a good debate, ill be honest about things I could do better. I have given up milk, but I struggle not to eat cheese occassionally! I drive a pretty stinky old diesel VW because I need to, for work. But I have to keep working to earn money to pay for a variety of things, and this illustrates the limitations of what individuals can do, and why it is SO important to force the issues and truths to the places of power which can have wide reaching, societal implications, so that we can move forward and support each other in that as communities and a country. And so we can have the neccesary sacrifices thrust upon us, because we are clearly so utterly crap at taking them on willingly.

Also, on the note of civil disobedience, again - suffragettes, civil rights movement, Ghandi, apartheid... rights, freedom, votes, for millions and millions of people. To say it is "an ineffective tool used by students before they grow up" is just simply not the case. Give up, maybe, but not grow up.

Im not saying you should all start protesting and trying to get arrested (though plenty of people have that very aim, literally sacrificing their time in HM Prisons for you and your children whether you think its a good idea or not). Im just trying to say, that there is a serious problem, hardly anyone outside the scientific community is talking about it, and the people in positions of power who can save ours and countless other species are currently more concerned with short term nonsense. So we have to engage, however is appropriate.

So, well done everyone for more great debate, continued finger pointing and evasion of the real question of whats happening and what should we all be doing about it.

 

[rafezetter]

Dokkodo.

My post missed the mark. I’m with you, this is going to be painful and have a huge impact. We are in no way doing enough nor fast enough. I applaud your passion. What I’ve not seen is a way to motivate the masses as that’s what’s required. Protests and rebellion just tend to turn the masses away from the causes in hand. I think the most positive and impactful environmental movement I’ve seen is the recent move on plastics and the ‘blue planet’. What’s required is to find a climate change equivalent.

F.

I echo this - but the fact is this group has no international presence of any kind, I'd never heard of them either, but even the naysayers here will have heard of Greenpeace, and any donations to your cause will not change anything to ANY degree.

Dokkodo, if the subject of the state of the planet is something you wish to dedicate your time to (something I applaud and more should do this), maybe you and they should be promoting Greenpeace with a proven track record of results and whom have also had dedicated members killed "in the line of duty".

Better still, maybe all the members of this group should just join Greenpeace and do some REAL protesting, out there in boats trying to stop whaling and dolphin slaughters, instead of holding a town hostage, that didn't even make the local news 30 miles away from Stroud in Bristol where I live! Talk about storm in a teacup or thimble more like, all it did was annoy locals and be counterproductive to your cause - with the passion you seem to display I'm sure you'd be welcome and if Greenpeace had a larger support base, they could not only do more but would become a real force on the international stage.

You might be annoyed at the replies here, but this looked for all the world like a shameless plug with the intent of garnering donations for a group almost no-one here had heard of!

Question: Just how many members, supporters and followers does this group have? If it's less than a million you're wasting your time.

There are enough other far more established groups of concerned individuals like Greenpeace, WWF, Friends of the Earth, Rainforest Alliance etc etc etc, give THEM your help and financial support and you might actually see some results.

https://learn.eartheasy.com/articles/wh ... integrity/

 

[rafezetter]

I just wrote such a long and thorough response that my browser timed out and I lost it. Fortunately for you all... So heres my half hearted second attempt.

So you guys give absolutely no creedence to the recent IPCC or UN reports?

No, we don't.

Why is that? I am genuinely interested. If you know something concrete that goes against 30+ years of scientific concensus, reached by thousands of dedicated scientists with access to all the best technologies, and compiled by institutions who if anything have an interest to underplay whats happening (it has proven repeatedly that their reports are way overly optimistic, part of the reason things are now so dangerously far along) then I am desperate to know, because I would love to see something hopeful.

I agree the world is overpopulated, but again, a very weak excuse indeed for not engaging with a catastrophic climate near-future. Population is a very complicated thing. Whether the world can support 1 or 10 billion depends on so many factors. One fat westerner uses many multiples the energy of someone from say, India. If we (in industrialised nations at least) were all vegetarian/vegan, far less wasteful, far more resource and energy efficient, if we underwent an(other) revolution in the way we practice agriculture and farming, and/or an energy revolution, who knows how many people could have a good quality of life. And anyway, birth rates are dropping and populations will indeed plummet once the poop hits the fan. Doesnt mean we should give up and soldier on to a hothouse earth that supports hardly any other life either.

DTR im afraid your criticism is pretty flawed also. Firstly, You dont have to dig around much on their website to see they have a very comprehensive plan in place, lay out how their organisation works honestly and in detail, their demands and goals, how people can get involved, what they believe... im not a representative for them and im not saying you have to agree with it all, Im aware they are just an activist group like many others, but it doesnt serve anyone to dismiss these things without taking a good look first. In case you genuinely missed it, the three lines, top right, is the menu button.

Secondly, to criticise the use of computers and chemicals, I mean, that is really feeble. Thats like saying "but they all drive around in cars and live in houses too so what they are saying must be worthless". Yes, its unfortunate, horrible even, that we live in a world where rare earth minerals are mined by congolese children so we can have computers and phones powered by coal fired power stations, sure. But this is the world we live in, and these technologies allow mass communication and are now probably the only way that we are going to be able to organise and inform ourselves quickly enough to avert total ecological collapse. So, we better get on with it and stop pointing fingers.

In fact, all these positions, "I knew an activist once who was an *****", "their website looks like a scam/predictable/whatever", "im not giving them my money", "they all get on planes and drive cars like the rest of us", "peoples movements never work", "what about over population", "ill just keep doing my recycling" - these aren't arguments, they are dismissals, excuses not to engage. And actually, im not surprised, because it is utterly terrifying. This isnt a movement that wants to threaten you, it is literally trying to save all of us, families, children from an unimaginably horrifying, brutal, painful and tragic end. Really, that and worse is on the cards. If you want to believe its not, take a look at the evidence, make an informed decision, stop hiding behind single issues and ill conceived opinions, its too dangerous, and there literally couldnt be more at stake.

Try watching their campaign video here, without scoffing, without dismissing, with an open mind. Its in your interests. Technologically, economically, socially, its possible to avert this crisis. Whats missing is public, popular engagement and political will. This is why I am emploring you (all 5 of you, what am I doing this here for I wonder) to engage.

And now I hope this conversation ends here, this isnt the place and I am starting to feel deeply sorry for starting it!

Dokkodo - it's good that you started it, it's a topic that does benefit from publicity and as you say is in everyone's interest to pay attention to, so you were far from wrong.

Where you went wrong was in promoting a group no-one had heard of, with an extremely small (if any) world presence and their website for all the fancy rhetoric, plans, demands and goals it has, it still cannot hide that they are just another of the hundreds or thousands of splinter groups all vying for validity and recognition, among the sea of concerned citizens about the state of the planet.

ALL of you, and I do mean ALL of you would be better off and get more and better results if instead of trying to be another Greenpeace or Friends of the Earth and failing miserably because no-ones heard of this group, just support on the other well established groups as I said above.

So I have to ask - is it the "state of the planet" that's the main reason for this group to exist, or is it the "charity status and the money"?

Like it or not that's a valid question that needs asking, and quite possibly the underlying question many of the other posters thought but wouldn't say, but I don't have any problems with asking.

 

[rafezetter]

The world is overpopulated.

Already we are at what those experts all say is unsustainable levels, and we're only forecast to get bigger. They reckon we'll easily see a world population of 10 billion in our lifetimes...

It is true. With 8 billion people, we have about 1 hectare per person of land, if you exclude desert and mountainous areas too high to cultivate. To provide space to live, work, for infrastructure, food, constructional materials, fibres for fabrics, and biofuels for when the oil and gas run out. It's surprising we aren't in bigger s**t already.

Some of us are in bigger sh** already, but it's yet to hit the first nations of the world because we keep taking more than our share in our 5 TV, 3 car, 2 homes (or more) society - and I doubt any real change will happen until people can't get their lattemochachino with sprinkles anymore because the countries that grow coffee are all polluted and dead.

 

[Dokkodo]

I agree with both of you, Rafezetter and Tony, that plugging extinction rebellion was probably not going to achieve much here. Just thought some peaceful environmental activism might interest some, and the rest might stay shush. Instead it was met with vehement BS calling and so ive felt the need to explain and defend the position.

This thread has two sides to it, actually that project (XR) as by far secondary, it was more of a starting point for this conversation. Id change the name of the thread if I could.

I am not affiliated with them in any great capacity, I will be attending the march on saturday, thats all. But if you actually look at what they are saying, its not a scam, or charity status thing, or dodgy fundraiser, its an urgent moral movement. More important than that particular group, or their website looks like, or even what they look like, which as you say is just one amongst many thousands of others, is the message.

Again, i refer you the video, particular the section to do with the facts of the matter, which does in turn lend the whole thing a sense of urgency and reinforce the actions of organisations like XR, although they are pretty unique at the moment. And they are small but that particular project is barely a few weeks old and gaining traction rapidly, again, because of their foundational understanding of the science.

basically, the last few years have confirmed that drastic climate change isnt going to happen over 100s of years, more like, over the next decade or two.

Again, you can watch it here


every movement has small beginnings anyway. having done a lot of research and watched that, i personally would rather not risk ignoring this, potentially last, opportunity to do something.

 

[Tasky]

on the one hand, you seem to suggest you don't believe what the international scientific community is saying

No, I said I put no credence in it.

on the other you are agreeing that damage has been done and in fact it is too late anyway because the world is overpopulated.

No, I'm saying the world overpopulation has ultimately caused most of the damage, and you'd need to kill a few billion people off before you could even hope to make a start on dealing with the problem, because we're consuming faster than we can even sustain them, let alone progress with things..... and I then asserted that, much as you may not like it, the solution was likely far more radical than you expect or would want to explore......

Anyway, I still dont see how any of that is an argument against engaging the greatest threat to our and countless other species of this geological age.

Oh, engage away...... How much money have you got to engage with?
How many trillions of Dollars?
Because that's how much the industries you'll be taking on are worth and that's what they'd have to lose for your rebellion to succeed. They really don't care about your tomorrow, just their profits today.

Unless youre a nihilist who thinks bring it on, lets risk knocking all known life back to 3% of its current biodiversity, should take a good few hundred million years to recover but that the hell. But i doubt it?

All life?
Nah, just the humans. Unless we figure out a way to venture off into space, we need some kind of mass extinction of human beings, really.

I don't fly.

Do you use motorised watercraft?
Do you use any product or service which has been brought to you by motorised watercraft?
Do you know how much of our 'stuff' has arrived by boat?
Do you know how much diesel marine engines use?

because that is (again, a UN report, so maybe you think this is more BS) the only way that agriculture can continue and we can keep eating, since we have reportedly 40-60 harvests left until we have completely depleted the intensively farmed land.

Yes, it's BS - We have too many people for this planet. Thin the herd and bring the numbers back to sustainable levels. More than one way....

I drive a pretty stinky old diesel VW because I need to, for work.

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Even *I* drive a fairly economical, low-emission diesel Škoda...!!
If it mattered to you that much, you'd sell the (Golf? 1.9 TDi?) diesel and buy a petrol motorcycle, or move closer to work and cycle in, or move even closer and walk.

I suppose you're a devout vegan, but wear leather shoes because you still need to walk places....?

But I have to keep working to earn money to pay for a variety of things, and this illustrates the limitations of what individuals can do

Plenty of people going completely off-grid and living self-sufficiently... Why not you?

why it is SO important to force the issues and truths to the places of power which can have wide reaching, societal implications

How do you think power is obtained?
Why do you think power is obtained?
They will have their own agendas to push. They will only care about yours if it helps them.

Also, on the note of civil disobedience, again - suffragettes, civil rights movement, Ghandi, apartheid...

Most of that was pretty darn violent, as I recall.... Bit more that just 'civil disobedience', eh?

Im not saying you should all start protesting and trying to get arrested

Good, coz it does nothing but waste taxpayers' money.... and you'll need all the money you can get.

though plenty of people have that very aim, literally sacrificing their time in HM Prisons for you and your children whether you think its a good idea or not

What, locked away where they're doing nothing and no good for the cause? No wonder it's not taken off like a rocket....!!
Might as well decide to fight a war by shooting yourself in the head!!

So, well done everyone for more great debate, continued finger pointing and evasion of the real question of whats happening and what should we all be doing about it.

Kill off the excess of people.
That is really, truly, honestly what it will come down to, unless we develop space colonisation really quickly.
But no-one likes the idea of that, even though it's not too far removed from what's been 'allowed' to happen quite a bit in our history already....

 

[DrPhill]

@Dokkodo: A nice try, and I wish you luck.... I am convinced by the scientific case for anthropogenic climate change (ACC), and have been for a decade or two. However you will face an uphill battle with certain (mainly older, mainly male) demographics when you try to sway opinions.

(I have done my share of campaigning, petitioning and debating but I have given up )

The history of the argument was mapped out long ago (1970s? 1980s?)

• deny that it is happening
• spend lots of money 'proving' it is not happening
• deny that it is human caused (what little old me and my car?)
• claim that evidence in favour of climate change is unreliable, in doubt, part of a conspiracy
• and at the end claim that it is too late anyway

You will also be expected to be a saint - any deviation from 'purity' is seen by the puerile as an excuse not to try. You will be pushed back with facile arguments - 'my mate down the pub's brother knows a scientist who says its all rubbish so that proves you are wrong'. 'I read on the web that it is all made up by the same people who faked the moon landings.'

You cannot rely on scientific fact. Scientific consensus on ACC is virtually complete, but the climate deniers have their own 'facts' that the gullible are all too willing to swallow.

Even so the developing evidence is that IPCC has been too cautious. Most indicators based on real data are tracking worse than the IPCC predicted. The IPCC predictions are constantly revised toward the pessimistic side as new data comes in.

There is still uncertainty in the predictions - we have not done this before. People will use this uncertainty against you. You will be required to prove beyond doubt that the exact consequences will come to pass. There is uncertainty in russian roulette but most people would apply the precautionary principle to that pastime - so why are we reluctant to apply the precautionary principle to something with such devastating potential as ACC?.

The problem is that our society has got used to the freedoms we have obtained by squandering almost the entire useful fossil fuel reserves of the planet in little more than a couple or three generations. We dont want to admit we blundered, and we dont want to do without our holidays and central heating and air conditioning. We are used to eating meat at every meal, and flying green beans and strawberries from the other side of the planet so that there is no off-season.
We want to consume ("Ending is better than mending"), have a new phone every two years, a second home, two cars.

I will be dead before the worst of this really hits...... but I pity the children born this decade. If the worst predictions come to pass then todays youth will suffer badly, unless they are part of the super-wealthy elite.

The only upside is that if 'civilisation' collapses it will likely not recover. The easily available fuel and metal reserves are long gone. Maybe humanity is a failed experiment?

 

[Dokkodo]

Dr Phil, thank you very much. Was beginning to feel like a mad man. This was never the place, I should have known better.

Tasky, thank you for exactly nothing, congratulations on winning that 'debate' on all counts, you win, we are all going to die.

That was my first and last attempt at keyboard activism. From now on I will only be out on the streets, disrupting your towns and making everyones final days on this earth really, really annoying.

(hammer)

 

[AJB Temple]

I agree that Climate change is a serious problem. The trouble with evangelist campaigning is that it tends to conflate a lot of associated issues, and then people argue about them and are distracted from the central point.

Campaigns like this get nowhere without focus. A simple, central message on one single subject that people can buy into and do something practical about.

When I consider a doomsday scenario it does seem odd in a way that we put a great deal of energy into medicine to extend life, when we live on an overpopulated globe. However, you can be sure that turkeys will not vote for Christmas.

 

[DTR]

The problem is that our society has got used to the freedoms we have obtained by squandering almost the entire useful fossil fuel reserves of the planet in little more than a couple or three generations. We dont want to admit we blundered, and we dont want to do without our holidays and central heating and air conditioning. We are used to eating meat at every meal, and flying green beans and strawberries from the other side of the planet so that there is no off-season.
We want to consume ("Ending is better than mending"), have a new phone every two years, a second home, two cars.

Nailed it. Which is why I asked my initial question, what does the incitement of rebellion hope to achieve, apart from p***ing people off? XR's policy/agenda (yes I checked it again) makes a handful of demands from the government. The government isn't the problem, we are the problem.

 

[Tasky]

This was never the place, I should have known better.

No, this is very much the place, especially as so many here have children and grandchildren.... But the way in which you have done it really isn't the right way. It just comes across as a wall of shouty rantiness.

Tasky, thank you for exactly nothing, congratulations on winning that 'debate' on all counts, you win, we are all going to die.

Well yes you are going to die, but that's not my fault.

As for the rest - If I had time to type up massive walls of text and pepper you with opinions and anecdotes and assertions and statements all over the place about climate change and Range Rovers and TLAs and all that ..... I would have. Fight fire with fire, and all that.
But as is, I made do with short, controlled bursts of fire to snipe at your argument, as I was trained to during riot control duty.

That was my first and last attempt at keyboard activism.

With ^that kind of approach, you'll generally find no audience on any similarly decent forum. Go find a student union place, or a keyboard activists forum for keyboard activisim... Those are the only places people will take that approach seriously.

If you want to make one or two points at a time and debate those, you might find some traction...
But so far, all I get is that you want to promote this website... which took me less than a minute to find several fundamental points of contention over, leading me to believe it's a fairly noble idea formed from a serious misunderstanding of the situation, applied with almost no clue about how people work and is doomed to become a pile of smouldering crap surrounded by the angry Muslims it has itself alienated.....

I mean, seriously?
" Sisterhood, Brotherhood, Elders, Young People, Muslims, Volunteers"...... ?
Yes, even the childtren of Islam are allowed to join us in saving the world...... WTF????!!!!!

The rest of it, about challenging power and rebelling, just sounds pathetic. Not the people I'd choose to spearhead a serious issue in the slightest, and strangely very similar to many other websites for many other 'causes'.... I wonder if the same one guy designs all their websites?


If you want serious professional debate and serious attention, present the case in a serious, professional manner.

 

[DrPhill]

Here is something to think about.....
Iceland Christmas Advert
Though it got banned for being too 'political' (or should that be 'uncomfortable'?)

 

[skelph]

Here is something to think about.....
Iceland Christmas Advert
Though it got banned for being too 'political' (or should that be 'uncomfortable'?)

Funny how the truth can upset some people, isn't it. Personally I think the ad is brilliant.
There's apparently a petition on the go to get the advert shown - 650k signatures supposedly.
skelph