WoodRiver 5 1/2 Jack Plane Passaround

[iNewbie]

And FTR nobody is mentioning the quality of the chinese made goods, here

Actually that's what this thread is all about, how good the WR 5½ is.

they're the real rubbish made ones.

Not according to all the reports from people that have actually used them. The clear concensus is that the current models of Wood River/Quansheng/Jumma hand planes is that they are very good indeed.

I think you've misunderstood me in your excitement... - and left out part of my quote: Theres been some comments about "chinese" made tools as if implying them as all being rubbish and as if people on here have made remarks against the quality of the WoodRiver when, they haven't. Where as some other chinese made tools have been of inferior quality. The quality isn't in doubt - though some might want to twist it that way into an 'if its made in china it must be sh*te' scenario. For those they'll have to have-at-it...

 

[Trafalgar]

Prices in USD:

Woodriver No. 4 from Woodcraft website (w/o shipping): $115.99
apparently on sale now, regularly $145.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/150874 ... ne-V3.aspx

Woodcraft has been in business since 1928.

Rob Cosman Woodriver videos: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... woodriver+

Lie-Nielsen No. 4 (ductile iron body) Highland Woodworking (w/o shipping): $300.00

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/lie- ... plane.aspx

Choice is yours.

I'm extremely doubtful that there would be a nickel's worth of difference in performance-on-wood between these two planes.

 

[Trafalgar]

.....
Also, when it comes to the frogs, the one on the Wood River is closer to the Lie-Nielsen version than to the Bedrock.

Frogs. Bedrock (left), Lie-Nielsen, (center), Wood river (right)
.....

These frogs are to all intents and purposes identical. Would it have made the slightest difference if WR had copied the original instead? Obviously not.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[iNewbie]

Prices in USD:

Woodriver No. 4 from Woodcraft website (w/o shipping): $115.99
apparently on sale now, regularly $145.

http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/150874 ... ne-V3.aspx

Woodcraft has been in business since 1928.

Rob Cosman Woodriver videos: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_ ... woodriver+

Lie-Nielsen No. 4 (ductile iron body) Highland Woodworking (w/o shipping): $300.00

http://www.highlandwoodworking.com/lie- ... plane.aspx

Choice is yours.

I'm extremely doubtful that there would be a nickel's worth of difference in performance-on-wood between these two planes.

You're looking desperate now, Charles.

I think the games over - it was a draw as it ever was going to be, so you didn't lose. :mrgreen:

 

[Trafalgar]

Just rattling cages.... I'd have to have another shop fire to actually be in the market for a new hand plane, that or grow three more arms so I could use several simultaneously. Three or four bench planes is quite enough for a run-of-the-mill woodworker with two arms. Bench planes are pretty boring outside the context of these fun little debates, comparisons, and contrasts.

I have to admit that I did not realize how inexpensive the Woodriver planes were until I checked prices today. I didn't know the price differential was that great -- honestly. Even if they require a half-hour or so of fettling they appear to be an astonishing value in a Stanley Bedrock copy. It's like finding a great little $8 bottle of wine from a relatively unknown maker the equal of bottles $50 or more. Don't fight it, enjoy it!

 

[Peter Sefton]

Wow little did I know that putting a WoodRiver plane out for a pass around would cause controversy.

I thought I would tell a small part about the development of WoodRiver as I understand it.

Woodcraft were the biggest reseller of LN planes in the past. They have around 80 stores in the US and I am their UK and European dealer. I believe Woodcraft had some supply issues with LN keeping up with ever growing demand. When Woodcraft decided to launch their own planes based on the bedrock design ,I assume LN were a little peeved (who wouldn't be, losing their biggest customer) and I would think that as the quality has improved, this may have turned to worry.

The guys at Woodcraft have worked very hard in China since around 2007 specifying and developing a new brand. I am sure it was a rocky road and many design and quality hurdles had to be overcome. But 7 years on we have the V3 planes which have been tweaked and redesigned with the help of Rob Cosman and more latterly with input from myself.

The good work that has been done has been duly noted by other retailers who have bought out other brands based on the development that WoodRiver have done. There are now a variety of planes on the market with similar designs and heritage, but they are not WoodRivers as their designs are different.

I was asked earlier in the year if I would be interested in looking at the WoodRivers, so I played with them for a few months in the Furniture School before committing. I am very pleased that Woodcraft asked me to work with them and to be associated with the history behind both them and the WoodRiver brand.

Woodcraft started in education and tool supply in the 1920's so we have shared values, including providing quality tools that are available at reasonable prices. I do not feel this steps on the toes of LN, Veritas or Clifton , it just gives the customer more choice. Woodcraft and Lee Valley have a very good working relationship and supply many of their products to compliment the WoodRiver and Pinnacle range.

I know that we now have a very reasonably priced set of quality planes being designed and manufactured by a large US company that make regular visits to the factories in China and they have quality inspectors based in the factory. This gives me confidence in the products that now have my name associated with them.

Please feel free to have the plane on the pass around and make you own opinions on the quality and associated value.

Cheers Peter

 

[matt_southward]

I became interested in the WoodRivers after watching a few of Rob Cosman's videos where he detailed some of the innovations that had been developed. I was particularly keen to compare these innovations with my Clifton, partly out of interest to see if there was an actual improvement and partly for comparison of quality/value etc

When I bought my Clifton I couldn't really afford it. I looked at the QS planes (I don't think Peter had the WoodRiver over here then - about a year and a bit ago) and was sorely tempted. However, after thinking about the various merits/ethics of buying local etc (plus Clifton have 2 USPs - the StaySet and the forged iron (though ironically the latter seems to be endangered now)) - I decided that supporting British business and other craftsmen was what I wanted to do. Did I make the right decision? That's a tough call as I'm not 100% happy with the Clifton and think there are areas where it's poorly finished (another reason for the comparison), and there is also a nagging doubt as to what I might have been able to buy with the money otherwise! I certainly cannot afford to buy any more, but would if I could.

Those that argue that WoodRiver have 'cloned' the LN are pretty much right, and as has been highlighted here - it wasn't illegal. Whether it was unethical or immoral is a whole other can of worms as ethics is a slippery customer and is prone to rather different view points and no absolute truth. If your ethics don't have a problem with the WoodRiver, then fine, if they do then don't buy one. I very much doubt that LN are about to run out of customers looking for some more shiny bronze any time soon. My only reservation about the Chinese manufacturing is with regards to the lack of environment control/protection over there. I'm also not keen on sweat shop labour (though I don't know the working conditions in the WR factories). But should we deprive the Chinese of the market to sell their products - and presumably their employees of wages? That's another can of worms and not easily answered. We all have to make up our own minds don't we?

 

[John15]

Good luck to WoodRiver, their planes look excellent as seen in Rob Cosman's workshop, but I would worry about relying on local inspectors to tick the boxes on the Quality Assurance sheet for each plane. In my experience (civil engineering) it was not unusual for the QA inspector to be employed by the contractor - and compromises were sometimes uncovered.

John

 

[Trafalgar]

I became interested in the WoodRivers after watching a few of Rob Cosman's videos where he detailed some of the innovations that had been developed. I was particularly keen to compare these innovations with my Clifton, partly out of interest to see if there was an actual improvement and partly for comparison of quality/value etc

When I bought my Clifton I couldn't really afford it. I looked at the QS planes (I don't think Peter had the WoodRiver over here then - about a year and a bit ago) and was sorely tempted. However, after thinking about the various merits/ethics of buying local etc (plus Clifton have 2 USPs - the StaySet and the forged iron (though ironically the latter seems to be endangered now)) - I decided that supporting British business and other craftsmen was what I wanted to do. Did I make the right decision? That's a tough call as I'm not 100% happy with the Clifton and think there are areas where it's poorly finished (another reason for the comparison), and there is also a nagging doubt as to what I might have been able to buy with the money otherwise! I certainly cannot afford to buy any more, but would if I could.

Those that argue that WoodRiver have 'cloned' the LN are pretty much right, and as has been highlighted here - it wasn't illegal. Whether it was unethical or immoral is a whole other can of worms as ethics is a slippery customer and is prone to rather different view points and no absolute truth. If your ethics don't have a problem with the WoodRiver, then fine, if they do then don't buy one. I very much doubt that LN are about to run out of customers looking for some more shiny bronze any time soon. My only reservation about the Chinese manufacturing is with regards to the lack of environment control/protection over there. I'm also not keen on sweat shop labour (though I don't know the working conditions in the WR factories). But should we deprive the Chinese of the market to sell their products - and presumably their employees of wages? That's another can of worms and not easily answered. We all have to make up our own minds don't we?

Lie-Nielsen (likely Lee Valley et al. as well) use Chinese machine tools to make their planes. Were these machine tools made under sweatshop conditions? I don't know, but if they were then L-N and L-V planes are only one step removed from same. If there is an objection to the planes themselves then ethics would dictate an objection to the machine tools as well. It becomes an exercise in absurdity very quickly for all except those whose ethics run very deeply and consistently.

The whole 'ethics of copies issue' is a total nonstarter. Everybody on this board uses some tool in their shop that is a copy of an original maker's tool, several of these makers still very much in business -- utility knives, craft knives, screwdrivers, wrenches (spanners), etc.

It's possible to eliminate China and non-Chinese tool copies from the equation but one would have to go completely vintage (probably no later than early 1930s) to do so.

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

Charles, wouldn't a more correct argument go along the lines of, because people want to buy cheap, regardless of ethical reasoning, machinery from North America became unavailable, so LN are forced to use the Imported option. So keep on buying cheap imported planes and the same fate will befall Western woodwork tool makers also. You are actually arguing agains yourself. We either buy at the lowest cost and have no morals or we help our neighbours keep their jobs in the countries we live. Otherwise, if we use Chinese planes built in sweatshops (your contention) then our furniture business, hobby, whatever, is in the same moral pit you have just accused LN et al being in using imported machines, all as a result of buying cheap imported things, that you are telling us we are being foolish if we don't take the opportunity to buy.

Mike.

 

[Jacob]

How many times a day do you make this noble ethical decision Mike, bearing in mind that a very large proportion of everything you could buy is imported?

 

[Ed Bray]

Well I took the plunge and bought two Woodriver Planes (#3 & #6) today and a Woodriver Plane Screwdriver. I wouldn't have bough Lie Nielsen anyway so they have lost nothing from my purchase.

 

[iNewbie]

I'm buying British - lovingly glances at Bulldog with a Union Jack tattoo...

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Anybody know what the relationship is between Wood River and Quangsheng? Do they come from the same manufacturer, or just same part of the globe?

 

[Doug B]

Anybody know what the relationship is between Wood River and Quangsheng? Do they come from the same manufacturer, or just same part of the globe?

Half sister & ******* brother I think :-k :-k

 

[Ed Bray]

Anybody know what the relationship is between Wood River and Quangsheng? Do they come from the same manufacturer, or just same part of the globe?

Same factory apparently, but slightly different specifications.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Ah - thank you. That explains the thicker T10 iron common to both marques.

 

[bugbear]

Anybody know what the relationship is between Wood River and Quangsheng? Do they come from the same manufacturer, or just same part of the globe?

Same factory apparently, but slightly different specifications.

A friend (long ago) worked in a bacon factory near me. They made bacon for pretty much every supermarket
chain in the UK.

He said the difference in the quality of the bacon supplied varied DRAMATICALLY on a per-supermarket basis,
as cost/quality choices in both raw materials and the various processing stages were taken.

But it all came from the same factory.

BugBear.

 

[Trafalgar]

Hello,

Charles, wouldn't a more correct argument go along the lines of, because people want to buy cheap, regardless of ethical reasoning, machinery from North America became unavailable, so LN are forced to use the Imported option. So keep on buying cheap imported planes and the same fate will befall Western woodwork tool makers also. You are actually arguing agains yourself. We either buy at the lowest cost and have no morals or we help our neighbours keep their jobs in the countries we live. Otherwise, if we use Chinese planes built in sweatshops (your contention) then our furniture business, hobby, whatever, is in the same moral pit you have just accused LN et al being in using imported machines, all as a result of buying cheap imported things, that you are telling us we are being foolish if we don't take the opportunity to buy.

Mike.

I personally couldn't care less about Chinese sweatshops (if they even in fact exist). Let 'em sweat. I'd buy Chinese planes with utter impunity if I needed more hand planes and/or the mood struck me.

Lie-Nielsen makes/made the same value decision when they bought Chinese machine tools. They're available from other places -- Italy immediately comes to mind, but at two or three times the price would be my guess.

There's enough sweat to go 'round, boys.

I'm going to need a change of shirts. I'm sweating.

 

[iNewbie]

I'm drowning in drivel here and it ain't me own!