WoodRiver 5 1/2 Jack Plane Passaround

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But is LN anoyed? I don't know, they never said they were. It's only an idea from the LN fans. Mayby they are more anoyed then LN themselves because an equally fine product is now available for half the price. In the meantime LN is doing fine with a strong brandname and a loyal customer base.
 
Corneel":rim5bd0b said:
But is LN anoyed? I don't know, they never said they were. It's only an idea from the LN fans. Mayby they are more anoyed then LN themselves because an equally fine product is now available for half the price. In the meantime LN is doing fine with a strong brandname and a loyal customer base.

This issue goes back several years now, when the WoodRiver planes were originally marketed by Woodcraft in the USA. It did cause an uproar. FWW magazine published an investigation in which they compared castings of Stanley, Lie-Nielsen and WoodRiver, and proved that the WR planes were made from LN castings. LN removed all their planes from Woodcraft shops. I believe they took Woodcraft to court as well. Yes, I think that you could say that LN were peeved, and that it was not just their fans. I find it amazing how some want to minimise what is unethical behaviour. Lee Valley were also affected as Woodcraft and The Japanese Woodworker sold copies of LV and LN tools.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
Corneel":2x12pszg said:
But is LN anoyed? I don't know, they never said they were. It's only an idea from the LN fans. Mayby they are more anoyed then LN themselves because an equally fine product is now available for half the price. In the meantime LN is doing fine with a strong brandname and a loyal customer base.

Why do you have to turn it in "Fans" thing, Corneel. You don't have to be a fan to realise something stinks, even if some WR fans (joke) might want to justify buying a copy of a supposed copy - thats not an equal btw...

Things can be legal but still shady - I'm thinking guilty people getting off of crimes via a good lawyer.

But hey people are entitled to their opinion(s) and we all know what people say about opinions.
 
It isn't unethical to copy something which isn't copyright or patent - in fact it's a good idea (if the original is any good to start with) and is the whole basis of traditional vernacular production worldwide.
If LN had innovated something (they haven't particularly have they?) they could protect their rights.
Copy copy copy - it's the basis of good design everywhere!

Would it make sense for LN/LV to do their manufacturing in China? It seems a good idea - so much far eastern stuff nowadays is astonishingly good quality/value.
 
Corneel":3c9hh7qz said:
But is LN anoyed? I don't know, they never said they were. It's only an idea from the LN fans. Mayby they are more anoyed then LN themselves because an equally fine product is now available for half the price. In the meantime LN is doing fine with a strong brandname and a loyal customer base.

This issue goes back several years now, when the WoodRiver planes were originally marketed by Woodcraft in the USA. It did cause an uproar. FWW magazine published an investigation in which they compared castings of Stanley, Lie-Nielsen and WoodRiver, and proved that the WR planes were made from LN castings. LN removed all their planes from Woodcraft shops. I believe they took Woodcraft to court as well. Yes, I think that you could say that LN were peeved, and that it was not just their fans. I find it amazing how some want to minimise what is unethical behaviour. Lee Valley were also affected as Woodcraft and The Japanese Woodworker sold copies of LV and LN tools.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I posted a link to the FW article you mentioned in an earlier post. I wouldn't necessarily call the article 'an investigation.' The conclusions drawn were much milder than that term would suggest.

Otherwise, these names sort of ring in one's head: Sargent, Millers Falls, Record, Craftsman, Winchester, Carter (an old Australian Stanley knock-off!), Dunlap, Marples (iron planes), Shelton, Fulton, Keen Kutter, Vaughan and Bushnell, Goldenberg, Ohio Tool Co (iron planes) good Lord the list goes on and on and on. All copies, and pretty strict copies at that.

If LN (LV?) went to court they got no redress -- apparently not as obvious an infringement as many would assert. One has to remember that there was really nothing to infringe - there were (are) no L-N patents on bench planes. Some have mentioned the issue of 'trade dress' and if that was the basis of the litigation then it didn't get very far.

At this point it's like ripping off somebody else's design for a toilet brush. Ubiquitousness trumps all. Stanley copies are flippin' everywhere. At any given point in time there are probably as many Stanley planes and copies in the used market than the combined production of Lee Valley and Lie Nielsen will have in the entire lifecycle of their respective companies -- auction sites, used tool dealers, swap meets, thousands of planes!
 
I posted a link to the FW article you mentioned in an earlier post. I wouldn't necessarily call the article 'an investigation.' The conclusions drawn were much milder than that term would suggest. These names sort of ring in one's head: Sargent, Millers Falls, Record, Craftsman, Winchester, Carter (an old Australian Stanley knock-off!), Dunlap, Marples (iron planes), Shelton, Fulton, Keen Kutter, Vaughan and Bushnell, Goldenberg, Ohio Tool Co (iron planes) good Lord the list goes on and on and on. All copies, and pretty strict copies at that.

If LN (LV?) went to court they got no redress -- apparently not as obvious an infringement as many would assert. One has to remember that there was really nothing to infringe - there were (are) no L-N patents on bench planes. Some have mentioned the issue of 'trade dress' and if that was the basis of the litigation then it didn't get very far.

At this point it's like ripping off somebody else's design for a toilet brush. Ubiquitousness trumps all. Stanley copies are flippin' everywhere. At any given point in time there are probably as many Stanley planes and copies in the used market than the combined production of Lee Valley and Lie Nielsen will have in the entire lifecycle of their respective companies -- auction sites, used tool dealers, swap meets, thousands of planes!

This is the link (however I think that you have to be a member of FWW to read it):

http://www.finewoodworking.com/item/141 ... nd-stanley

Here is an extract:

"With the measuring tools in hand, it became obvious that Lie-Nielsen made several improvements to the old Bedrock. For example, a look at the No. 5 shows that the sole and side walls are thicker than the Bedrock. Also, Lie-Nielsen introduced some current technology by using stress-relieved ductile-iron for the casting, with manganese-bronze as an option. The blade is thicker and made from tool steel, with an A-2 steel blade as an upgrade.

Then, too, a few years ago, he improved the chipbreaker, making it thicker to help reduce blade-chatter. And, he added a shallow lip on the business end, ground to a 1º angle, to help ensure gap-free contact.
Interestingly, the Wood River plane also has a thick sole and side walls. And, it has a thick blade like the Lie-Nielsen, and a similar stepped chipbreaker.

The body-castings show some other differences between the Lie-Nielsen and the Bedrock. On the Lie-Nielsen, the wood knob mounts to a double boss; the Bedrock has a single boss surrounded by a raised ring. Wood River has a double boss much like the Lie-Nielsen.

IMG_4170_V1_xl.JPG


Knob bosses. Bedrock (left), Lie-Nielsen (center), Wood River (right)

At the back of the body casting, the Lie-Nielsen wood handle mounts to an elongated boss. On the Bedrock, that same detail is somewhat different. But, on the Wood River, the boss nearly matches the Lie-Nielsen.

IMG_4166_V1_xl.JPG


Handle bosses. Bedrock (left), Lie-Nielsen (center), Wood River (right)

Also, when it comes to the frogs, the one on the Wood River is closer to the Lie-Nielsen version than to the Bedrock.

IMG_4158_V2_xl.JPG


Frogs. Bedrock (left), Lie-Nielsen, (center), Wood river (right)

So who begot who? For sure, we know there’s Bedrock DNA in both Lie-Nielsen and Wood River. And, based on my side-by-side look, it appears there are Lie-Nielsen genes in Wood River.

Copying is not new or unique to the tool trade, nor is having tools made in China to reduce cost. It’s up to each of us to decide just how comfortable we are with those facts of life."

Tom Begnal, associate editor, retired



I consider it relevant to point out that this was about the original (Mk1) Wood River. There have been two further revisions to the plane that I know of, the last one a result of the input from Rob Cosman. One could argue that the current model(s) is no longer derived from the LN. This will empower some to invest (?) in these planes. For others the memory continues to leave a bad taste in the mouth, and Wood River (and Woodcraft) remain persona non grata.

Regards from Perth

Derek
 
Tom Begnal: Copying is not new or unique to the tool trade...

No, it certainly isn't. Especially in light of the litany of the companies who've been copying Stanley planes continuously for over 100 years. There hasn't been a point in time in any of our lifetimes that at least a handful of companies weren't copying Stanley planes.

Picking a company to defend is about as arbitrary a thing as I can imagine.

.. on another note, didn't the L-N 'improvement' (per the Begnal article) to the chipbreaker turn out to be a bust, can't be set really close?

... and as I mentioned in an earlier post the thicker Stanley castings during the War years have always been roundly panned and explained as being the result of a shortage of skilled machinists and grinder operators during the War. Is thicker really better? Just because 'somebody' says so? Who says? Stanley ground them thinner when the labor was available. Why? Wouldn't leaving them thick have been the easier path?

My takeaway from the Begnal article is that there was plenty of cross-pollination going on between L-N, Stanley, Chinese brands, etc. and to the extent that the matter has (?) been recently litigated then a court must have agreed.
 
Jacob":gy6mfkbd said:
It isn't unethical to copy something which isn't copyright or patent - in fact it's a good idea (if the original is any good to start with) and is the whole basis of traditional vernacular production worldwide.

Oh please...

The basis of the (tedious) web argument is that WR used a LN for its casting. LN apparently didn't make a direct copy and improved on the design making their own Wooden moulds, then into plastic, before casting. So not a direct copy of the Stanley!


Would it make sense for LN/LV to do their manufacturing in China? It seems a good idea - so much far eastern stuff nowadays is astonishingly good quality/value.

Not when their intent is to keep manufacturing local thereby employing local people, no. And their aim is High Quality...
 
I sort of laughed when I read this post on another forum:

"...WoodRiver planes are designed in the USA, made in China, and sold and serviced in the USA. Lie Nielson planes are made in the USA using machine tools made in China..."

Well, Taiwan to be exact. L-N uses Supertec stuff for a lot of critical operations on castings. You can see this equipment in one of L-N's videos. One wonders if this sticks in Mr. Lie-Nielsen's craw just a bit.

Can't get China out of the equation apparently. If Chinese machine tools are good enough for the L-N production floor, then....??? draw your own conclusions.

I would imagine the same is true of Lee Valley facilities and those of its subcontractors.

The Chinese are capable of working to spec. Give them specifications (tolerances are totally up to you), they'll give you a price, you give them an order if you like the price. If the product is out of spec, they'll fix it. If your design is a rip off of somebody's valid, enforceable patent that's your problem. They're job is to provide a quote on the job and produce it based on your design and specifications. Period.

China can sell you the tools to make the tool or just make it for you in the first place. Your choice.
 
it's seems to more about fashion and fan bases rather than innovation/improvement. Thick castings/blades are fashionable for no apparent reason. No science involved here. The bedrock design isn't that good to start with - the adjustable mouth as per Stanley and Veritas is much better, particularly the Veritas.
 
CStanford":2zth54mw said:
I think they ripped off the adjustable mouth from ECE.... :wink:
Really? That's shocking, I'm utterly disgusted and enraged!! :roll:
 
Jacob":1ftdjeyz said:
CStanford":1ftdjeyz said:
I think they ripped off the adjustable mouth from ECE.... :wink:
Really? That's shocking, I'm utterly disgusted and enraged!! :roll:

Me too. Somebody ought to file a lawsuit.... (hammer)

ECE have been in business since 1852 (Stanley 1843). Slavery was still legal in the United States and our civil war was about a decade away. Long time ago, in US terms.
 
The chipbreaker design is excellent. I have quite a number and they work very well.

It has been almost universally copied by IBC, Veritas and of course Quangsheng, Wood River and the other european manifestations.
 
David C":2n9xqecm said:
The chipbreaker design is excellent. I have quite a number and they work very well.

It has been almost universally copied by IBC, Veritas and of course Quangsheng, Wood River and the other european manifestations.

... and the idea of a chipbreaker in the first place....???

As mentioned in a previous post, when 90+% of the design work is already done for you improvements become much easier.
 
CStanford":34vpjndx said:
David C":34vpjndx said:
The chipbreaker design is excellent. I have quite a number and they work very well.

It has been almost universally copied by IBC, Veritas and of course Quangsheng, Wood River and the other european manifestations.

... and the idea of a chipbreaker in the first place....???

As mentioned in a previous post, when 90+% of the design work is already done for you improvements become much easier.
And the Record SS was copied by Clifton. Unscrupulous pirates!
 
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