Won't somebody think of "young people"? (Edit: and No, older people aren't "to blame")

[Jacob]

The union's declared war with there strikes and seeing the deposition between the management and union bosses with management pointing out that the union's wage demands would take the mine from a profit of 10k a month to a loss of 25k a month and the investors wouldn't stand the loss with no likelihood of an increase in the mined product's value, the union came back with not our problem and if we don't get the rise we're all going on strike! Unsurprisingly the mine shut 3 days later !
The union's had reached a point where they believed themselves to be untouchable and there is no negotiating with someone who believes that

Management have the power and the money. Unions only have the strike. If they are forced to use it then management has failed.
Arthur Scargill didn't close down the coal industry - Thatcher did. Bad management and underinvestment finished off the UK car industry, not red Robbo! Thatcher closed down large parts of UK industry - remember ICI?
Weird that people blame the unions, students, the unemployed, foreigners, trouble makers, single mothers on benefits, you name it, but don't blame the people with the power to change things!

 

[Billy_wizz]

The amazing thing about this is that it still needs to be explained at all. Even if explained as "investing in human capital" people still don't get it.
This sort of attitude is really common: Tory MP forced to deny he said free school meal vouchers 'spent on crack dens'

To be fair my experience has been the opposite as soon as most people feel safe they become less productive and self destructive I've also noticed it's almost always driven by jealousy of people who have more I wonder if we've hit a point where social media has driven expectation to the point that many will never be satisfied and therefore whilst there needs may be met there expectation hasn't

 

[Jacob]

To be fair my experience has been the opposite as soon as most people feel safe they become less productive and self destructive I've also noticed it's almost always driven by jealousy of people who have more I wonder if we've hit a point where social media has driven expectation to the point that many will never be satisfied and therefore whilst there needs may be met there expectation hasn't

Yeah! Being homeless incentivises people to buy houses!

 

[Billy_wizz]

Management have the power and the money. Unions only have the strike. If they are forced to use it then management has failed.
Arthur Scargill didn't close down the coal industry - Thatcher did. Bad management and underinvestment finished off the UK car industry, not red Robbo! Thatcher closed down large parts of UK industry - remember ICI?
Weird that people blame the unions, students, the unemployed, foreigners, trouble makers, single mothers on benefits, you name it, but don't blame the people with the power to change things!
[/QUO

Management have the power and the money. Unions only have the strike. If they are forced to use it then management has failed.
Arthur Scargill didn't close down the coal industry - Thatcher did. Bad management and underinvestment finished off the UK car industry, not red Robbo! Thatcher closed down large parts of UK industry - remember ICI?
Weird that people blame the unions, students, the unemployed, foreigners, trouble makers, single mothers on benefits, you name it, but don't blame the people with the power to change things!

Yeah! Being homeless incentivises people to buy houses!

I have no idea where you're coming from with that comment as I wouldn't consider someone who is homeless to have there needs met

 

[Jacob]

You are saying that comfort, having needs met, de-motivates people and they become less productive. Presumably you think discomfort will do the opposite?

 

[doctor Bob]

Trouble is people don't like strikes these days.
Ever since the class system broke down in the 70's, and the working man realised that he didn't have to be working class anymore, held back in effect.

Unions are great until they become extreme with leaders over estimating their self importance.

 

[doctor Bob]

I have 2 young guys working for me both about 25, they drive cracking cars GTI and Focus ST bought new. One has just bought a house the other is looking. I wouldn't say they are earning a fortune but they work hard and do overtime. They chose to work from 17 rather than university avenue, I sometimes wonder if 50% going to uni is beneficial overall.
I suspect if you spend 3-4 years at uni you'd want to be earning more than the guys who chose not and feel hard done by if that wasn't the case, but if there arn't sufficent high end jobs then someone is going to lose out.
When my son said he wanted to be a scaffolder I was all for it. University would not have been for him. I sometimes wonder if the kids know what they are getting into on certain careers, for example, being a doctor, it's a life time of learning and studying, great for some but the pressure must be enormous, as opposed to being a happy go lucky tradesman. The other truth which is painful is that a good trade may well be out earning middle management. I think this factor is a bitter pill for university kids and university parents.

 

[Billy_wizz]

You are saying that comfort, having needs met, de-motivates people and they become less productive. Presumably you think discomfort will do the opposite?

I think your trying to argue a different point I pointed out that in my experience having needs met is no longer enough for many people! although personally if I was homeless or suffering discomfort it would most definitely drive me but the likelihood of me homeless or in discomfort is also limited!

 

[Billy_wizz]

I have 2 young guys working for me both about 25, they drive cracking cars GTI and Focus ST bought new. One has just bought a house the other is looking. I wouldn't say they are earning a fortune but they work hard and do overtime. They chose to work from 17 rather than university avenue, I sometimes wonder if 50% going to uni is beneficial overall.
I suspect if you spend 3-4 years at uni you'd want to be earning more than the guys who chose not and feel hard done by if that wasn't the case, but if there arn't sufficent high end jobs then someone is going to lose out.

I think the problem is that because anybody can now go to university and get a degree a degree now holds less value but a large number think that a degree automatically increases there value! I worked alongside a lad who worked whilst at uni and demanded a pay rise on completion and couldn't understand why the gaffer suggested that if ha wanted a pay rise it would be advisable to get a job relating to his art degree rather than the manual handling job he currently had

 

[Blackswanwood]

I don’t know what %

I have 2 young guys working for me both about 25, they drive cracking cars GTI and Focus ST bought new. One has just bought a house the other is looking. I wouldn't say they are earning a fortune but they work hard and do overtime. They chose to work from 17 rather than university avenue, I sometimes wonder if 50% going to uni is beneficial overall.
I suspect if you spend 3-4 years at uni you'd want to be earning more than the guys who chose not and feel hard done by if that wasn't the case, but if there arn't sufficent high end jobs then someone is going to lose out.
When my son said he wanted to be a scaffolder I was all for it. University would not have been for him. I sometimes wonder if the kids know what they are getting into on certain careers, for example, being a doctor, it's a life time of learning and studying, great for some but the pressure must be enormous, as opposed to being a happy go lucky tradesman. The other truth which is painful is that a good trade may well be out earning middle management. I think this factor is a bitter pill for university kids and university parents.

I think you are onto something there. University has become a “rite of passage“ and for many does little to make them more employable or better skilled.

 

[Jelly]

Thatcher closed down large parts of UK industry - remember ICI?

Oh boy, did we kill the golden goose there!

The story of what killed ICI is sufficiently complex that I suspect a lot of people wouldn't have any interest in following it, but suffice to say deregulation plays a major role and the grubby fingerprints of shady Thatcherite grandees is all over it.

Always sticks in my craw when I see BASF going from strength to strength, showing us what could have been for ICI; especially given that chemicals is the only UK industry sector which survived the 80's and 90's as a net exporter

Weird that people blame the unions, students, the unemployed, foreigners, trouble makers, single mothers on benefits, you name it, but don't blame the people with the power to change things!

Not really, from the moment our head of state told the nation "There is no society" on in the die was cast.

People have been assiduously looking out for number one ever since...

"Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one"

More than one generation has been brainwashed into believing neo-liberal claptrap that was literally doodled on a bar napkin by a half-cut Regan advisor in a Washington D.C. bar room, to justify tax cuts for wealthy republican grandees, all the while blissfully unaware that solidarity with one's fellow man was the only way to ensure their security and that of their families.

When you consider that context, it's not surprising that people feel so disempowered that they will naturally gravitate towards "punching down" in order to feel good about their lot, and can be persuaded via emotive arguments in that vein to vote against their own interests to give a bloody nose to those they feel are looking down on them.

 

[Jameshow]

As many have said money dosen't bring happiness.

A large detached house income of £160k two decent cars on the drive is of no comfort for a weekly visit to the pharmacy for the carrier bag of meds and a bouquet of flowers for when the consultant as the condition has deteriorated -
Living with a chromic illness is no fun.

Just be happy to with some 2x2, a No4 plane, three chisels and a sharp handsaw....

Cheers James

 

[Spectric]

Well thinking of the younger people they should actually be unaffected by the lockdown and not notice much change because they don't have real freinds just virtual ones that follow them in the dark world of the "smart phone" and unsocial media.

 

[Jacob]

As many have said money doesn't bring happiness.
....

Depends what condition you are in. For some people even a small amount can make a huge difference to the quality of their lives and "happiness".
Good welfare benefits/services are probably amongst the most cost effective way of improving lives and bringing happiness. UBI could be a major winner on that score - instead of a continual struggle to survive people could get on and do more interesting things, possibly of benefit to society in general.

 

[Jelly]

I think you are onto something there. University has become a “rite of passage“ and for many does little to make them more employable or better skilled.

As a graduate and (in my role as a manager in a large corporate entity) an employer of graduates, there's a significant element of truth to this.

Higher education is now a prerequisite for many jobs where it's not needed; Simultaneously universities haven't adapted their curriculum to the new paradigm, meaning many graduates in fields where that level of education is a neccecity aren't getting the preparation for applying that knowledge in the real world, whilst increasing financial pressures mean all but the largest employers don't have the resources to train them on the job, meaning it's sink or swim trapping many in entry level jobs for years.

There was a grand dream under new labour that the UK could become a "knowledge economy" wherein all the children of people who bought their houses under "right to buy" coukd cement their family's middle-class status by going to uni and becoming professionals.

That was wholly divorced from reality, and has instead effectively created a weird blending of the class structure which has only served to further fragment society.​

However,

I do think that attending university gives young adults some excellent opportunities for personal growth and development outside the classroom, which the UK doesn't provide to its (chronically under-valued) vocational learners.

By contrast, certain German guilds still seek to send newly minted tradesmen to go practice in other Lander (German states) as journeymen after their apprenticeships in order to formally finish their qualification process, and large employers seek to replicate this with company wide (and international) training programmes.

Which offers those apprentices the same opportunities to grow as uni students get, and contributes to greater social cohesion (along with vocational skilled trades having similar social capital as academic qualifications, which is a huge cultural difference between Germany and the UK).​

 

[AJB Temple]

I've employed a lot of graduates over the years, including Oxbridge recruitment when I was in the professions.

Anyone, including graduates, who thinks that employers value degrees with any equivalence whatsoever, is deluded. Employers grade the universities, degree subjects and candidates. Non-vocational degrees or any with no professional relevance are largely disregarded. Many graduates have added debt but no value to their lives in terms of earning capacity.

There will be a hard reckoning as post C19 jobs will be scarce and entitled youngsters will find themselves in competition to a far tougher extent than we have seen in the past decade.

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Perhaps a discussion on the value of money may be in order. Interest rates set the future value of money (I give up the benefit of owning £100 by lending it to you - what do I get back at the end of the year to make up for that?). If interest rates are zero, then the value of money is zero. Interest rates need to be back up around 5% before the economy can ever be anything other than a zombie. 5% interest rates would destroy most large businesses, who have loaded up on debt to fund share buybacks and other silliness. It would cause chaos, but clear out all the mal-investment. It may never be allowed to happen, so expect a planned economy USSR style for ever more.

House prices are mainly where they are because of the low interest rates. Fix the rates, and you fix the housing market, to a large extent.

Also not helpful is government planning rules and various other laws which make a resource scarce on purpose. Seeing as government also fixes interest rates, you can blame high housing costs squarely on government (both left and right)

Another reason for high house prices is demographics - more single parent families, lots of immigration (population rising from 55 - 66 million). You could even argue with some merit that government policies have exacerbated this, too.

Who wants to bet that the net population will keep rising, post coronavirus, post Brexit? Will housing costs keep rising? Lots of oldies looking to downsize to extract some capital, lots of immigrants heading home, theoretically lots of job losses, although government borrowing to pay UBI seems to be papering over that for the moment. I would expect a lot of houses becoming available for sale over the next few years, but will prices just keep rising? Inflation is also mainly a government controlled issue.

Let's just blame government for everything. It works for most other subjects, so why not this one. Until government stops messing with the market who can possibly know what the true value of a house actually is?

 

[Jacob]

....

House prices are mainly where they are because of the low interest rates. .....

Not so.They were shooting up when interest rates were very high.
The issues are a combination; the cessation of council house building and the sale thereof, deregulation of the rented sector and financial rules over mortgages etc, low taxation particularly capital gains and death duties etc, inflationary stimuli such as "buy to let" mortgages.
Basically complete absence of government policy and reliance on the mythical efficacy of the "free market". In other words a policy intended to crank prices up as high as they can go.
Lots of books on the topic - here's another: Broken Homes - Troubador Book Publishing
PS just re read the above - if you think the value of money is zero just send any you have to me immediately. I promise to replace it with something worth more than zero. Not sure what, perhaps some old clothes? Or a chisel? A tin of beans?

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Not so.They were shooting up when interest rates were very high.

When? Show me.

 

[Terry - Somerset]

By the 1970s the UK was known as the sick man of Europe. Inefficient businesses being destroyed by both employers and unions. Successive governments of both hues incapable of providing effective leadership.

Thatcher changed that.

She neutered the unions who believed the rights of workers trumped absolutely the rights of business owners.

She forced businesses that still believed "we won the war so we must be right" to recognise the world beyond the UK which was increasingly capable of producing much that the UK could at a lower cost.

Steel, coal, cars etc were mature technologies at which the UK would increasingly be uncompetitive. They declined leaving only the higher value added - special steels, design, precision manufacturing etc.

Introduction of container ships made global trade far easier. Some may remember the disruption during implementation of containerisation.

The only material area in which MT was deficient was in training and support for the development of new skills and businesses. She should not have assumed that entire communities would have the energy, skills and initiative to improve themselves, but needed constructive suppoort.

Without her leadership the UK may easily have declined into bankruptcy being passed rapidly by India, China over 30 years ago.