Why Two?

[yetloh]

Thank goodness this thread has been rescued from a standard of debate reminiscent of the playground. As someone said earlier, if you stick around here for a while you soon discover who you want to take seriously and that will differ from person to person because these differences of approach are to a large extent a matter of temperament and not a question of absolute rights and wrongs as some like to present them. Lots of highly skilled cabinet makers use honing guides and lots don't. Some use lots of different planes, others don't. Who cares? What matters is what is right for you and, in addition to temperament that will depend on where your intersts lie, the depth of your pocket, and the sort of work you do. It's all valid and should all be celebrated as part of keeping the craft alive. If some people make a decent living out of catering to the needs, desires and even vanity of those who derive livings or just pleasure from woodworking, good luck to them, it is economic activity which keeps others in jobs and provides plenty of choice for those who want it.

Jim

 

[Corneel]

19th century wooden smoothing planes with a higher pitch are something I have found on numerous occasions in the past. I have a matching pair in the workshop now They are by the same maker (Buck I think) and are identical. same owners stamp, and from one tool chest. I can only presume the owner had a lot of difficult wood to plane to require two matching planes!. I have to say that although I have come across high angled coffin smoothers in the past I can't remember seeing a try plane with a higher pitch, but I will be at the David Stanley auction tomorrow so I can start looking!

Thanks a lot for the info Richarnold! I´ve been looking quite a bit for similar planes, but I definintely live on the wrong side of the Northsea. You guys live on a goldmine overthere. Do you happen to have some pictures and meassurements from your Buck planes? What pitch do they have? Are they singe or double iron? I want to build some planes this winter and am looking for inspiration.

This comes from Holtzapffel's turning manual, volume 2, page 482. Probably well known. I was always amazed about this list, because I couldn't find 55 degree smoothing planes anywhere, not in real life, not even on a picture. It seems half pitch was indeed ment for moulding planes only. And Holtzapffel doesn't mention try planes with a high pitch (which doesn't mean they don't exist).



Maybe we should start a new thread for his....

 

[Corneel]

50 degree planes weren't so rare. Before the chipbreaker all planes in Holland were 50 degrees. In Germany you can still find 49 degree planes. In Roubo is a nice picture of a tryplane with a 50 degree angle (plate 13, nr 2.).

 

[Corneel]

I vaguely remembered a steep pitched single iron plane on the site Logan cabinet shop. It took a bit of digging, but here it is. Kind of proving myself wrong (hammer) . Pitched between 50 and 55 degrees according to Bob.

http://logancabinetshoppe.com/blog/2010/10/le-petit-rabot/

 

[woodbrains]

Hello,

The funny thing about history is, that from our point of view it all happened simultaneously. We can take want we want from it and use it as suits. There is no need to say that high pitched planes were not popular after the inteoduction of cap irons so we should not have a high pitch and a cap iron combo now. We do not have to historically correct. In any event, LA bevel up planes don't have cap irons! And if we hone a back bevel on a common pitched plane, the pitcnh angle is a virtual one, the frog doesnt suddenly steepen. So we are not exactly doing the same thing as was done historically and we are stuck with a cap iron anyway. It is all fun to experiment and learn. The thing about history is, we should learn and expand on it, not follow some sort of dogmatic religious rite over it. I think we are lucky to have the tools available to us, the superb modern ones and the best old ones. I work with both old and new, premium and lowly, fettled, modified and self built. It is all fun!

Mike.

 

[Corneel]

Wait a second, no dogmatic religious thing overhere! I don't deny the usefullness of high pitched planes at all! They are very effective, and that's a good thing too, because chipbreakers are a bit cumbersome in a moulding plane.

The chipbreaker is a great invention of course, and I haven't find the limit of it's usability yet. When I combine the use of a chipbreaker with one of my German 49 degree smoothing planes, it's a very stong combo. While using the 49 degree pitch without he chipbreaker close to the edge, gets me lukewarm at best. The double iron plane kind of took over the marker in the 19th century. So that makes me wonder what happened to the high pitched, single iron planes. And because I have this idea to make some planes, I wonder if I should give a 55 degree plane a try, again. Again, because I have made a failed attempt allready a few years ago. That attempt only produced lots of chatter in hard wood.

BTW, I'm not very interested in new tools. They just don't turn me on. But that's a personal thing of course.

 

[J_SAMa]

Right... I hone all my plane blades at a little higher than 30 deg (lets just say 32 deg here) as I find the edge retention of 25 deg edges just aren't long enough. Now if I did that with an LA plane, then the EP would be 44, about the same as a regular bench plane. Defeats the point of LA doesn't it?

 

[Jacob]

Yes. Except that a "low angle" block plane is going to have a lower EP than an ordinary (220 etc) blockplane - in the vicinity of 38 to 45º ish - about the same as a regular bench plane as you say!

 

[J_SAMa]

I never actually used a block plane, but is it OK to put a back bevel on block plane blades? That would increase the edge's angle without increasing the EP wouldn't it?

 

[David C]

Yes, but I think this is more useful on the 20 degree standard block plane.

A 10 degree back bevel with a 20 degree honing gives an EP of 40 degrees on the standard angle plane ~;-)#

Clearance angle is reduced from 20 to 10 degrees. This is OK. (Leonard Lee's book describes these things very well).

Back bevel on 12 degree plane probably not a good idea as clearance angle is reduced too much.

David Charlesworth

 

[mark w]

Jacob and Mignal, reminds me of that film title Dumb & Dumber.

 

[woodbrains]

Right... I hone all my plane blades at a little higher than 30 deg (lets just say 32 deg here) as I find the edge retention of 25 deg edges just aren't long enough. Now if I did that with an LA plane, then the EP would be 44, about the same as a regular bench plane. Defeats the point of LA doesn't it?

Hello,

But would you not similarly hone a higher angle on a standard block plane and end up with an EP of 52 and the difference reappears?

Corneel, I wasn't acusing anyone of dogma, it was a general comment that we should not have to stick to historical propriety. But you have to admit, you were tending towards the decision that the cap iron negated the need for high pitched planes. Now at least you are warming to the fact that a high EP and a cap iron might give an advantage in certain situations. You even have had practical experience of favourable results in your 49 degree smoother. You kept that quiet , you sly old dog!

Mike.

 

[Corneel]

Yes, I see, didn't read you carefully enough. Forums do have the effect of become a bit too dogmatic.

The 49 degree smoother WITH chipbreaker is great, almost invincible I'd say. With the chipbreaker moved up, it is nothing special, not much different from a 45 degree plane. Even a humble species like Ash can be troublesome without using the chipbreaker. A few years ago I was using a backbevel for these situations, but I didn't like the maintenance issues of the backbevel. Now I do almost all smoothing with my Stanley #4 with the chipbreaker set close to the edge, or a 45 degree woodie, used similar. The German reformhobel (at 49 degrees) is a bit in disrepair at the moment, the movable insert has broken. I really need to repair that thing. Then I have a nameless infill, around 49 degrees too. I don't really like to use that one too much because it is very heavy.

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with high pitched planes. I'd like to try a 55 degree one. The standard planes are available much cheaper though and can do remarkable work, when you know how to use them.

 

[J_SAMa]

Right... I hone all my plane blades at a little higher than 30 deg (lets just say 32 deg here) as I find the edge retention of 25 deg edges just aren't long enough. Now if I did that with an LA plane, then the EP would be 44, about the same as a regular bench plane. Defeats the point of LA doesn't it?

Hello,

But would you not similarly hone a higher angle on a standard block plane and end up with an EP of 52 and the difference reappears?

Corneel, I wasn't acusing anyone of dogma, it was a general comment that we should not have to stick to historical propriety. But you have to admit, you were tending towards the decision that the cap iron negated the need for high pitched planes. Now at least you are warming to the fact that a high EP and a cap iron might give an advantage in certain situations. You even have had practical experience of favourable results in your 49 degree smoother. You kept that quiet , you sly old dog!

Mike.

Yes, but I was comparing it to bench planes...
The LA configuration are indeed useful for block planes as they are compact, but I don't see the point of planes such as the No. 62. It's a bench plane so it's not compact and the LA configuration doesn't really offer any angles that the No. 5 doesn't. Also you lose the cap iron, which I think is a major factor in preventing tearout.

Sam

 

[David C]

What I wonder are the maintenance issues of a back bevel?

David

 

[Corneel]

While I was still using a jig it ment an extra jigging operation. And later when I learned freehand sharpening it was just cumbersome to hit that 10 degree backbevel each time. It also hinders when you feel for the burr. Overall it irritated me a lot.

Another issue with a backbevel, it's allways there, also when you don't need it. Pushing is harder, and I thought it causes fastere wear of the edge. So you need two smoothing planes or two irons. Well, I have enough planes, so that wouldn't be such an issue, but it irritated me nonetheless.

 

[Jacob]

What I wonder are the maintenance issues of a back bevel?

David

Simple. You either repeat it every time, or repeat it diminishingly until it disappears, or grind it off.
If you forget it's there you are reminded when no amount of face flattening will remove the burr. You then have to lift it touch.

 

[yetloh]

Yes, I see, didn't read you carefully enough. Forums do have the effect of become a bit too dogmatic.

The 49 degree smoother WITH chipbreaker is great, almost invincible I'd say. With the chipbreaker moved up, it is nothing special, not much different from a 45 degree plane.

I'm not convinced of the real value of so-called chipbreakers except as blade stiffeners. I believe a plane designed to do without one and with a suitably thick blade will work just as well and avoids the faff of fettling setting the damn thing every time the blade is sharpened. Top quality blade steel is expensive - how much easier and cheaper to substitute half the necessary thickness for something cheap and call it a chipbreaker.

Jim

 

[Jacob]

.......
The LA configuration are indeed useful for block planes as they are compact, but I don't see the point of planes such as the No. 62. It's a bench plane so it's not compact and the LA configuration doesn't really offer any angles that the No. 5 doesn't. Also you lose the cap iron, which I think is a major factor in preventing tearout.

Sam

A lot of people thought the same - the 62 wasn't popular and was discontinued. Low angle for a compact block plane quite different and was /is a winner.

 

[Corneel]

Hi Jim,

I suggest you have a look at this little video I made. Planing with a very cheap old wooden plane, against the grain of some maple. The point isn't that you can't make usefull planes without a chipbreaker, the point is that almost all planes allready have a chipbreaker, so why wouldn't you learn to use it? The second video is some kind of an instructional one about how to use the chipbreaker.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3Nq1sbOhMM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSjpzta0FuY

Chipbreakers work impressively well against the problem of tearout.