Who is in and who is out?

[Jacob]

Some interesting reading here. It never was just about trade.

http://www.rense.com/general87/nationstates.htm

If you read about its history from the beginning, it is 100% obvious that it never was. The electorate have been lied to consistently since the Treaty of Rome. What do we know, though, eh?

If you believe it was all about some garbled fantasy of Monnet's which we only know as supposedly taken (out of context) from a 1952 letter to a friend, then you can believe anything.

The one big thing which gives the lie to the big conspiracy is the idea of EU freedom of movement as a fundamental right. This is in complete and utter contrast to all tyrannies old and new - with strict population control (even to the point of extermination).

Mega political conspiracy makes for entertaining fiction but not to be confused with the real world!

 

[heimlaga]

All right chaps. The referendum is over.
PLEASE CALM DOWN AND BE CIVILE TO EACH OTHERS!

To put everything in perspective I want to point out that the Faroe Islands stayed outside the EU when Denmark joined.
The total area of the Faroes is 1399 square kilometres and the population is 49000 of which 15000 live in Tórshavn which is the biggest city.
Their only natural resorces are fish and pastureland and edible sea birds and some potato patches and of cause the coal mine at Hvalba which is worked by 2-4 men.
The Faroes thrive and prosper outside the EU. Anyone claiming that Great Britain with it's huge natural resources and woodlands and farmland and large population cannot do the same is nothing but a liar.
There is no reason what so ever to listen to the fearmongers.

Democracy is all about letting the people govern themselves. Setting upp referendum upon referendum until the people vote the way the establishment wants has nothing to do with democracy. Setting up another referendum in the next decade would be a step back to medieval times. A decision is made and now it is time to carry it out in practise.
By the way I would have liked to have you Brits with us in the EU trying to reform the thoroughly rotten EU oligarchy from inside but democracy has to prevail!
Time for you to build the new independent GREAT BRITAIN!

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Nigel Farrage didn't think a 52-48 would be decisive enough.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ni ... um-7985017

Yeah, but I'm not going to take ideas of what is right or wrong from that piece of .......
When you play a game you have to decide on the rules at the outset, this "game" will have severe consequences and perhaps the referendum should have never been called, but it was and common sense, tolerance and decency lost. The only course of action now is to try and mitigate the harm this will cause to the economy and to the hard working tax paying immigrants who have made their home in this country, cleaning our hospital floors while lazy Brits collect their dole and complain about immigrants with their sickening sense of entitlement (that's what it's like on my estate anyway, there are quite a few Eastern Europeans and all of them get up and go to work like me, the Brits, not so much).

No it didn't, to dismiss more than half of the voters in that way just because they don't happen to fit your preconceived ideas and preferences is quite frankly puerile and insulting, and far away from the tolerance that you mention, although perhaps you don't see the irony.

I'm accepting the result, doesn't mean I gotta like it. As a decedent of immigrants who came to work and help build this country I've been sickened by peoples attitude to hard working tax paying immigrants. What do you want, you won, isolationism here we come, recession here we come, nothing I can do about it, but I'm not going to agree with it just because you won. If I was the last person left in the UK who didn't blame immigrants for the nations problems I still wouldn't change my opinions.

 

[dynax]

By the way I would have liked to have you Brits with us in the EU trying to reform the thoroughly rotten EU oligarchy from inside but democracy has to prevail!
Time for you to build the new independent GREAT BRITAIN!

If this was possible it would have been done a long time ago, but the only way to change the eu is for every member state to leave and become independants,

 

[Cheshirechappie]

All right chaps. The referendum is over.
PLEASE CALM DOWN AND BE CIVILE TO EACH OTHERS!

To put everything in perspective I want to point out that the Faroe Islands stayed outside the EU when Denmark joined.
The total area of the Faroes is 1399 square kilometres and the population is 49000 of which 15000 live in Tórshavn which is the biggest city.
Their only natural resorces are fish and pastureland and edible sea birds and some potato patches and of cause the coal mine at Hvalba which is worked by 2-4 men.
The Faroes thrive and prosper outside the EU. Anyone claiming that Great Britain with it's huge natural resources and woodlands and farmland and large population cannot do the same is nothing but a liar.
There is no reason what so ever to listen to the fearmongers.

Democracy is all about letting the people govern themselves. Setting upp referendum upon referendum until the people vote the way the establishment wants has nothing to do with democracy. Setting up another referendum in the next decade would be a step back to medieval times. A decision is made and now it is time to carry it out in practise.
By the way I would have liked to have you Brits with us in the EU trying to reform the thoroughly rotten EU oligarchy from inside but democracy has to prevail!
Time for you to build the new independent GREAT BRITAIN!

Thank you, Heimlaga - a calm voice of sanity when we need it! You are quite right - we can go forward as an independent nation, not at all isolationist, but looking to the whole world rather than just the EU.

I look forward to the day when a proud and independent Finland can join the UK and many other nations in building an association of free states co-operating for our mutual benefit on trade, security and any other matter we might see fit, respectful of each other's culture and sovereignty.

I hope that day comes soon. I think it might - I can't see the EU lasting long in it's present form.

 

[t8hants]

I very much doubt if the EU will allow anyone else to leave, they will make it so hard that no other country will dare to.

 

[custard]

Moderators s please shut this down.

People who I had previously considered to be nice are full of bile and hatred and I don't want to know about that side of them.

Apparently this is currently happening on many forums and in many social groups. People that had happily chatted for years are suddenly drawing In/Out battle lines. I heard this morning that a local Scrabble group has now split into a Remain Scrabble group and an Exit Scrabble group, I don't know whether to regard that as amusingly silly or absolutely terrifying? In much of life we manage to confine our associations to fairly like minded people, it's sad in a way because all we ever hear in that echo chamber is our own beliefs fed back to us, however it does make for a peaceful existence. Move out of those groups and the unwritten rule is "don't talk about politics or religion", so we chat about the weather and rub along without incident.

But this is all so raw and acrimonious, it's something few of us are really used to and we haven't worked out any social rules yet.

Be nice to think it'll soon blow over, but something tells me it'll take a long time before this one cools off. There are such massive expectations on the leave side for a change that I'm convinced will simply never happen, when that realisation hits home their anger will be incandescent. While on the remain side every economic and social set back will get furiously blamed on the leave vote. Rather than calming down this could stay boiling and seething for years to come.

 

[Jacob]

....we can go forward as an independent nation, not at all isolationist, but looking to the whole world rather than just the EU......

We already are looking at the whole world not just the EU.
All the EU does is make EU business easier - it does not limit our activities in the rest of the world and we trade everywhere. Never heard of Chinese woodwork tools, Japanese cars, etc etc?

 

[Jacob]

By the way I would have liked to have you Brits with us in the EU trying to reform the thoroughly rotten EU oligarchy from inside but democracy has to prevail!
Time for you to build the new independent GREAT BRITAIN!

If this was possible it would have been done a long time ago, but the only way to change the eu is for every member state to leave and become independants,

The EU is continuously changing, according to the wishes of it's members and to changes in the world. It's not "fixed" it's a democratic institution and can continually renew and adjust.

 

[Jacob]

Moderators s please shut this down.

People who I had previously considered to be nice are full of bile and hatred and I don't want to know about that side of them.

Things were fairly good until the result but now it's just nasty

Nah!
It's all very interesting and nobody seems to be falling out.
It's much more interesting than being on say facebook where most of my friends are singing from the same sheet!
People need to say what they think and listen to what others think.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

....we can go forward as an independent nation, not at all isolationist, but looking to the whole world rather than just the EU......

We already are looking at the whole world not just the EU.
All the EU does is make EU business easier - it does not limit our activities in the rest of the world and we trade everywhere. Never heard of Chinese woodwork tools, Japanese cars, etc etc?

Oh - Jacob! If the EU were just a free trade area, we wouldn't have needed a referendum, would we? The EU has become far, far more than just a free trade area - and that's the root of the problems. See rest of this thread for details.

 

[heimlaga]

I very much doubt if the EU will allow anyone else to leave, they will make it so hard that no other country will dare to.

Right......and who are EU going to send to stop you? The Austrian navy with landing troops from the Swedish army :roll:
Yo will need to muster a full dozen men at the nearest pub to bundle up that invasion and put them on the next ferry to Calais.

When the people in a democratic country makes a decision together and carries it out together in an atmosphere of freedom and equality then almost nothing can stop them. History has proven this over and over again.
Don't worry and stop blaming each others for heaven's sake.

 

[Jacob]

....The EU has become far, far more than just a free trade area - .....

I agree. Its a bigger and more imaginative scheme than first proposed, with enormous potential to benefit all of us.

 

[dynax]

By the way I would have liked to have you Brits with us in the EU trying to reform the thoroughly rotten EU oligarchy from inside but democracy has to prevail!
Time for you to build the new independent GREAT BRITAIN!

If this was possible it would have been done a long time ago, but the only way to change the eu is for every member state to leave and become independants,

The EU is continuously changing, according to the wishes of it's members and to changes in the world. It's not "fixed" it's a democratic institution and can continually renew and adjust.

ordinarily i don't get involved with politics, but for nearly 30 years i have always said we would be better off out than in, the idiots and i'm being kind to them, are just self centered power hungry control freaks that have been given a green light to do whatever they want, and like all bullies don't expect anyone to stand up to them, but we have and they don't like it, we may be a small minority that want change, but don't dismiss the little man, if pushed too far, some may be happy to live under a cloak of lies and deceit, but those who do want to live in a true democratic enviroment will find a way and will change it,

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Moderators s please shut this down.

People who I had previously considered to be nice are full of bile and hatred and I don't want to know about that side of them.

Apparently this is currently happening on many forums and in many social groups. People that had happily chatted for years are suddenly drawing In/Out battle lines. I heard this morning that a local Scrabble group has now split into a Remain Scrabble group and an Exit Scrabble group, I don't know whether to regard that as amusingly silly or absolutely terrifying? In much of life we manage to confine our associations to fairly like minded people, it's sad in a way because all we ever hear in that echo chamber is our own beliefs fed back to us, however it does make for a peaceful existence. Move out of those groups and the unwritten rule is "don't talk about politics or religion", so we chat about the weather and rub along without incident.

But this is all so raw and acrimonious, it's something few of us are really used to and we haven't worked out any social rules yet.

Be nice to think it'll soon blow over, but something tells me it'll take a long time before this one cools off. There are such massive expectations on the leave side for a change that I'm convinced will simply never happen, when that realisation hits home their anger will be incandescent. While on the remain side every economic and social set back will get furiously blamed on the leave vote. Rather than calming down this could stay boiling and seething for years to come.

I couldn't agree more. This was just the most binary and divisive situation. Personally, I think (hope) that by venting these opinions, by avoiding the cut of the censorial knife, we will, in some cathartic way, come to realise that we have more that unite than divide us. We were all "woodworkers" before the referendum and that community includes Americans, Finnish, Scots, irish, Canadians, South Africans etc. I think when the anger, disappointment, soreness has abated, we will once again be woodworkers and we can put this behind us. People generally behave with good intentions in mind but do that without all the facts. I think during the run up to this referendum both sides of the debate have been starved of facts and have had instead to make do with the usual spin and rhetoric from politicians and the media. Just think about that, how much of what influences our opinions is fed to us from sources where an agenda is driving the message. We take that message as gospel at our peril!

One of the things I've always liked about working with a natural material like wood is that it removes the subject from the equation. "Opinion" won't help plane twisted grain in a piece of curly maple, only skill and experience comes to the rescue in that situation. These are the things that we discuss here with enthusiasm, relish and by pooling our collective knowledge, solve the problems. Those noble goals transcend politics, borders, colour, race and religion because they challenge us all in the same way and in so doing unite our endeavour.

I don't doubt we will return to that after some time when the rawness of this unique set of circumstances has had time dull it's edge.

But while it is still raw, it just seems inappropriate to me to censor the views and opinions across the political spectrum by locking this thread. I will appeal to all to keep the comments away from personal insults because they really don't help and just injure the publisher. But I have faith and it really is nothing more than a sort of blind confidence that this community of people, from all walks of life, will find a way back to civil discussion about wood again. Actually, it's not that blind, it comes from direct experience of seeing post after post, thread after thread of folk helping each other out. When their partners have critical illness, when they're short of a "bit of ebony", when they need a manual for the Wadkin "iron lump" from 1937. Underneath the soreness of the recent seismic political shifts are a bunch of genuinely decent human beings, and their true colours will return in due course. Of that I'm quite sure, because that's what their real identity is....not the angry person we see at the moment.

So I think this thread should be allowed to run it's course while each has something to say. Freedom of speech at this time seems important. Moving beyond the schism is desirable and I don't really know why I'm quietly confident we'll get there....I just am.

 

[t8hants]

I half suspect that for the next few months the EU will be really nasty to us, then there will be some sort of olive branch, a suggestion from within our parliament for a new referendum, and all those who its claimed have just gone OMG what have we done, will be invited to correct their mistake by voting the official way.
Isn't that what happened to Ireland when they reject the Lisbon Treaty.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Moderators s please shut this down.

People who I had previously considered to be nice are full of bile and hatred and I don't want to know about that side of them.

Apparently this is currently happening on many forums and in many social groups. People that had happily chatted for years are suddenly drawing In/Out battle lines. I heard this morning that a local Scrabble group has now split into a Remain Scrabble group and an Exit Scrabble group, I don't know whether to regard that as amusingly silly or absolutely terrifying? In much of life we manage to confine our associations to fairly like minded people, it's sad in a way because all we ever hear in that echo chamber is our own beliefs fed back to us, however it does make for a peaceful existence. Move out of those groups and the unwritten rule is "don't talk about politics or religion", so we chat about the weather and rub along without incident.

But this is all so raw and acrimonious, it's something few of us are really used to and we haven't worked out any social rules yet.

Be nice to think it'll soon blow over, but something tells me it'll take a long time before this one cools off. There are such massive expectations on the leave side for a change that I'm convinced will simply never happen, when that realisation hits home their anger will be incandescent. While on the remain side every economic and social set back will get furiously blamed on the leave vote. Rather than calming down this could stay boiling and seething for years to come.

The referendum result was somewhat unexpected, and still so recent as to be raw to many. I'm sure there will be many newspaper articles exploring 'why' - as usual, some may be more enlightening than others.

As to 'leave' side expectations, I'm sure there will be some that expect instant change, but I think many more will look at the Article 50 two-year time scale. Others will probably expect it all to take longer than that - we've been 'in' for forty years, so disentangling all the threads will take a long time. In the meantime, all the other business of government and reaction to world events will have to continue as well.

Things will settle in time; for now, it's not unreasonable to chew over the implications, but it's worth remembering that whichever way anybody voted, they did so in a peaceful, democratic exercise, believing that they cast their vote for the best, and not with malice.

If we're going to discuss the matter at all on this forum, lets do it calmly and with respect for each other's views.

 

[Inoffthered]

a liberal left media

I'm impressed you think the Guardian has that much influence, it only reaches about a million.

Have you been watching the BBC since the result was announced?

 

[Jake]

Pretty much - that's politics for you, and people would after all be exercising their free democratic will as the Irish did both times.

 

[paulm]

No it didn't, to dismiss more than half of the voters in that way just because they don't happen to fit your preconceived ideas and preferences is quite frankly puerile and insulting, and far away from the tolerance that you mention, although perhaps you don't see the irony.

I'm accepting the result, doesn't mean I gotta like it. As a decedent of immigrants who came to work and help build this country I've been sickened by peoples attitude to hard working tax paying immigrants. What do you want, you won, isolationism here we come, recession here we come, nothing I can do about it, but I'm not going to agree with it just because you won. If I was the last person left in the UK who didn't blame immigrants for the nations problems I still wouldn't change my opinions.

With respect, you seem to be projecting your own fears and concerns onto others in an arbitrary fashion.

My personal decision as to which way to vote did not involve isolationism or blaming immigrants for the nations problems, whatever you think those may be.

My own motivations were entirely positive and constructive and forwards looking, as I believe many others were too, and I am disappointed that some seem disinclined to accept that they have had their say but now need to get behind the majority and make it work as best we can.