Which digital calipers?

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Nothing is flat and nothing is square, things can approach flatness and squareness to a tolerance. Nothing is 100%, not just no woodwork, but no matter in the universe, indeed all that can be meant by 100% is within the confines of your accepted tolerance The measuring equipment you use needs to be accurate to the tolerance necessary for the task in hand. The most demanding accuracy in woodwork is probably joint making, for this task accuracy to 0.1mm is splendid. The final digit on your calipers is irrelevant

 

[Peter Sefton]

I don't understand why people say it's only for woodwork so it doesn't matter about accuracy, when I am making anything be it woodwork or metalwork I try to get it as near 100% as I can. I have 2 pairs of Mitutoyo and cannot fault them. I am not saying there is anything wrong with cheaper ones but I prefer to buy once and not take a chance.

If you really wanted to work to say 0.02mm accuracy you would have to correct every bit of wood every day, if not every hour. It would be impossible to finish anything.
0.1mm is as near spot on as you could expect (for brief spells depending on the weather, dryness of wood etc) but for most purposes working to the nearest 1mm is very precise.

1 mm is not very precise if you are working with veneer that is between .5 and .7mm thick, or try using a mixture of metric and imperial tooling, you can soon become unstuck.

I have had scale, dial and digital callipers over the years and I wouldn't swap my digital for the others. The ability to flick the switch between mm, imperial and fractions is great. Also pressing zero at any point to read the difference between two measurements is useful on occasions, and the fact the numbers are 14mm high on the lcd readout is a bonus.

Cheers Peter

 

[Jacob]

...
1 mm is not very precise if you are working with veneer that is between .5 and .7mm thick, or try using a mixture of metric and imperial tooling, you can soon become unstuck....

Yes obviously :roll: but I did say "for most purposes".
The traditional non-digital is marked metric and imperial (fractions) and very easy to read without pressing a switch or changing a battery.
There's also a great advantage in seeing scales side by side and there is much less likely to be random errors due to mis-reading digits or a dial. Should be first choice for a woodworker.

 

[RogerP]

I make a part to fit the measured part I've already made. For instance I measure and cut a mortice then make a tenon to fit not measured with a ruler.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

I don't understand why people say it's only for woodwork so it doesn't matter about accuracy, when I am making anything be it woodwork or metalwork I try to get it as near 100% as I can. I have 2 pairs of Mitutoyo and cannot fault them. I am not saying there is anything wrong with cheaper ones but I prefer to buy once and not take a chance.

If you really wanted to work to say 0.02mm accuracy you would have to correct every bit of wood every day, if not every hour. It would be impossible to finish anything.
0.1mm is as near spot on as you could expect (for brief spells depending on the weather, dryness of wood etc) but for most purposes working to the nearest 1mm is very precise.

I wrote a long reply which I've now removed because I can't be bothered to get into an argument.

Let me just say this. If you're a beginner and only maintain joinery to 1mm accuracy, plus the margin of errors on tools and equipment (unavoidable), you're in for a painful time. If you're aiming for good traditional joinery rather than metal fasteners, 1mm is not even remotely accurate enough except for all but the roughest projects.

I stick my neck out. It's how I learn. But I'm not basing the above on nothing.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

I make a part to fit the measured part I've already made. For instance I measure and cut a mortice then make a tenon to fit not measured with a ruler.

Absolutely Roger.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

I make a part to fit the measured part I've already made. For instance I measure and cut a mortice then make a tenon to fit not measured with a ruler.

Comparative measurements, which is as it should be. I don't know the size of a few of my most used chisels and router cutters - I use them because they are the right size for the work in hand, not because they are a specific size.

 

[Jacob]

I don't understand why people say it's only for woodwork so it doesn't matter about accuracy, when I am making anything be it woodwork or metalwork I try to get it as near 100% as I can. I have 2 pairs of Mitutoyo and cannot fault them. I am not saying there is anything wrong with cheaper ones but I prefer to buy once and not take a chance.

If you really wanted to work to say 0.02mm accuracy you would have to correct every bit of wood every day, if not every hour. It would be impossible to finish anything.
0.1mm is as near spot on as you could expect (for brief spells depending on the weather, dryness of wood etc) but for most purposes working to the nearest 1mm is very precise.

I wrote a long reply which I've now removed because I can't be bothered to get into an argument.

Let me just say this. If you're a beginner and only maintain joinery to 1mm accuracy, plus the margin of errors on tools and equipment (unavoidable), you're in for a painful time. If you're aiming for good traditional joinery rather than metal fasteners, 1mm is not even remotely accurate enough except for all but the roughest projects.

I stick my neck out. It's how I learn. But I'm not basing the above on nothing.

Most joinery/furniture is made as accurately as possible with the means to hand - which may be only a tape measure, (accurate to 2mm?) but the precision comes with the fitting together - adjustments to door hanging etc, for which a micrometer or vernier calliper would be completely useless.
It's possible to do almost everything very precisely without precise measuring instruments.
In fact if you use the rod system you can make things precisely without measuring anything at all.

I use a vernier calliper most often for thicknessing - just a quick check every now and then to see how things are going through the machine. Next most often for surveying - measuring exact thickness of things I'm copying etc.
Either way the basic model is best.

 

[Jacob]

I make a part to fit the measured part I've already made. For instance I measure and cut a mortice then make a tenon to fit not measured with a ruler.

Absolutely Roger.

Not me. I work from a rod. All the mortices are cut in one operation, the tenons in another. This may be hundreds if you are making a batch of windows and doors.
They should fit - if not there is a systematic error which needs attending to next time, or would have been spotted with a few trial fits (or checks with callipers) during the process. Though of course there are accumulating random errors which will need correcting - hence the fitting of doors as mentioned above

 

[RogerP]

Quite, but I don't make batches of doors or windows, I only make single items of furniture. Difference between a tradesman and a hobbyist I guess Even so I do occasionally use a rod when it helps.

 

[Jacob]

Quite, but I don't make batches of doors or windows, I only make single items of furniture. Difference between a tradesman and a hobbyist I guess Even so I do occasionally use a rod when it helps.

Actually I use a rod even for simple one-offs. You have to establish all the details anyway as you progress through a job, so you might as well have them all in one place on a rod - then you can see that everything fits and you don't need to do any more measuring or calculating. Otherwise you can end up re-working lots of figures on the back of an envelope and still use the wrong ones!

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Quite, but I don't make batches of doors or windows, I only make single items of furniture. Difference between a tradesman and a hobbyist I guess Even so I do occasionally use a rod when it helps.

Actually I use a rod even for simple one-offs. You have to establish all the details anyway as you progress through a job, so you might as well have them all in one place on a rod - then you can see that everything fits and you don't need to do any more measuring or calculating. Otherwise you can end up re-working lots of figures on the back of an envelope and still use the wrong ones!

I guess everyone has their own way of working and it's the results that count. I had a good chuckle picturing someone using a micrometer to hang a door, though. :lol:

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Not that funny - I saw one used as a G cramp.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Not that funny - I saw one used as a G cramp.

:shock:

 

[Jacob]

There's a lot of threads like this on where the assumption is that something more expensive, more precise, digital, with brass knobs on, etc.... will do a better job.
Often not the case and the posh kit makes it more difficult, not less, and the precision is completely wasted on woodwork.
Sharpening is the most egregious* example - what used to be easy is now difficult and expensive for many.
The only beneficiaries are the tool sellers.

*I use the word "egregious" because after many years I've finally found out what it means and managed to remember for a few days in a row!

 

[YorkshireMartin]

There's a lot of threads like this on where the assumption is that something more expensive, more precise, digital, with brass knobs on, etc.... will do a better job.
Often not the case and the posh kit makes it more difficult, not less, and the precision is completely wasted on woodwork.
Sharpening is the most egregious* example - what used to be easy is now difficult and expensive for many.
The only beneficiaries are the tool sellers.

*I use the word "egregious" because after many years I've finally found out what it means and managed to remember for a few days in a row!

That's because it's most often true. You get what you pay for in most situations, but I'd agree that above a certain point there are diminishing returns.

egregious is a great word. First heard it in 1999 on a BBC comedy called The League of Gentlemen.

 

[bugbear]

Often not the case and the posh kit makes it more difficult, not less,

Interesting viewpoint. Any reasoning to support it, other than prejudice?

BugBear

 

[Jacob]

Often not the case and the posh kit makes it more difficult, not less,

Interesting viewpoint. Any reasoning to support it, other than prejudice?

BugBear

Experience dear boy.

At a simple level - my better quality stainless steel vernier calliper stays in it's box - it's more difficult to read (easier to misread) and the degree of precision is wasted. Also I wouldn't want to leave it kicking about on a worktop it could come to harm. Ditto the plastic dial calliper - easy to misread and fragile.
Whereas you could stand on the the cheapo CZ, or drop it from a height, without it coming to harm. It has metric and imperial scales side by side so you can see what's going on. Accurate to about 0.1mm which is good enough for any woodworker.

And of course, reading of the travails of members when faced with simple tasks like sharpening but doing it the modern way. I went that way myself for some time - it was a great relief to get back to reality.

And as Yorshiremartin said "above a certain point there are diminishing returns". Above a certain point quickly reached there are negative returns and the money would be better spent elsewhere.

 

[YorkshireMartin]

Often not the case and the posh kit makes it more difficult, not less,

Interesting viewpoint. Any reasoning to support it, other than prejudice?

BugBear

Experience dear boy.

At a simple level - my better quality stainless steel vernier calliper stays in it's box - it's more difficult to read (easier to misread) and the degree of precision is wasted. Also I wouldn't want to leave it kicking about on a worktop it could come to harm. Ditto the plastic dial calliper - easy to misread and fragile.
Whereas you could stand on the the cheapo CZ, or drop it from a height, without it coming to harm. It has metric and imperial scales side by side so you can see what's going on. Accurate to about 0.1mm which is good enough for any woodworker.

And of course, reading of the travails of members when faced with simple tasks like sharpening but doing it the modern way. I went that way myself for some time - it was a great relief to get back to reality.

And as Yorshiremartin said "above a certain point there are diminishing returns".

But surely you'd concede that methods of working and desired results differ?

It's fair to say that some of the most complicated joinery is done by Japanese carpenters, and has been for hundreds of years, way before the advent of digital calipers, or even analog ones. The difference is, that in modern times, very very few people have the opportunity to learn under a true master craftsman for an extended period of time, so good kit is a way to instantly boost the quality of your output. It's not only that, it's the costs involved, particularly in raw materials. For example, I use a Sedgwick planer/thicknesser. I don't have to, but it's for sure I'd have burned through a heck of a lot more wood, creating nothing but scrap if I'd gone the hand tooling route initially. So I chose the "ultra luxury" approach, quality machinery.

Did I need a Sedgwick? I think so probably, yes, for my particular circumstance. I don't regret it at all. I didn't have the time/money to learn the engineering necessary beforehand to refurbish a machine and I've been burned so many times on Chinese tools, including planer thicknessers, resulting in wasted precious months, that it was the logical choice. It was never a question of need, it was a question of balance and investment in myself.

I buy quality tools because they work (usually). If they don't work, the manufacturer is concerned about their reputation and will help you, quickly. I called Sedgwick once and even though I'm not their customer directly, I was helped within minutes. Things like that matter to me.

One of the hardest things in starting out in woodwork is knowing what to buy. The amount I've learned since starting is ridiculous. I never knew that a Stanley set square wouldn't be square. I never really knew what sharp was. I thought B&Q sold everything I'd need. That's how it is when you start from scratch. B&Q is the font of all knowledge and the likes of Holtey are completely unknown. I'd never even heard of Festool.

After that, we all find our own path.

PS. Bugbear is experienced too, I don't think calling him boy was particularly cool. (hammer)

 

[Jacob]

So you think our OP would benefit by spending 10 times as much on a vernier caliper as compared to the CZ, Draper or similar?
I don't think so - in fact the cheap one will be easier to use.

PS actually the price difference isn't that great but nevertheless I would definitely recommend a Draper rather than Mitutyo or a digital, because its good enough for woodwork but also actually easier to read and less likely to lead to errors. Keep it simple!