Which course, Paul Sellers or Peter Sefton

[Cheshirechappie]

Jacob, the thread was started by someone asking which course was best. The course providers only commented when asked direct questions or bated by you. To now suggest they should not be allowed to defend themselves from your prejudiced views is the height of hypocrisy.
Earlier you suggested people should not go on their courses. Yet even you had training of some sort whether that was indentured apprenticeship or a TOPS course I do not know nor care but to suggest people should not seek out training for our trade is again hypocrisy.
I know it is best not to bite, on your bating but on behalf of those course providers, the record needed stating clearly.

I don't have a prejudiced view. I've no idea about the quality of these courses. I just get a bit brassed off with endless self promotion and free advertising.
Ask yourself how many of their posts are about woodwork topics but without reference to the courses (and the tools etc) they are selling.
I'm sure Peter is fully aware of what I am saying.
Another notorious self promoter used to answer wood-work questions with things like "it's in my second book, third video" etc, in other words "I'm not telling you the answer - go and buy my book"! :lol:

Tell you what, Jacob - since you have such a low opinion of people running introductory woodworking courses (a wrong opinion, in my view - as several posts on this thread from people who have benefitted will attest), how about running some courses yourself? You've got the workshop, you've got the skills, and you've got the opinions.

Obviously, you wouldn't advertise these courses, as that would go against all you've said in this thread. Nonetheless, word would spread about the Derbyshire Guru who cuts dovetails with little but a sharpened nail, and people would flock to drink up the wisdom of He Of The Dished Stones. Next stop, the BBC would come knocking, and you'd be the star of The Great British Make Off, prowling the benches in the tent like Mary Berry with a pencil behind her ear. Fame and fortune await, Jacob!

 

[meccarroll]

I think when assessing a course it is worth considering a few factors which may affect your expectation or experience.

Who exactly is teaching the course? Not the same as whose name is over the door. The person delivering the subject may be the technician or a workshop assistant; and in some cases it can be a fellow student!

Will the tutor be dedicated to the students that have paid for their time and expertise for the whole duration of the course, or will they be running other courses at the same time, or teaching your course for part of the day and leaving you with others to deliver the majority of your learning, or even dealing with their commercial customers? What is the main focus of their business and consider how that will that impact you and your experience?

Does your tutor have any teaching and/or assessing qualifications, and are they experienced at teaching or are they a commercial workshop that has a bit of spare bench space and a desire to improve their cash flow?

Is the teacher experienced in that subject area and has the facilities to teach it fully. In sharpening for example does the teacher demonstrate a wide variety of medium and have them available for you to use?

What facilities do they have - a good range of tools, machines or veneering equipment that is relevant to you and your own workshop?

Is the workshop in an easily accessible location with local amenities, and is there a range of accommodation nearby to suit your budget, if you wish to stay locally during your course.

Will you need to bring your own tools or will you be issued with your own quality toolkit (not shared workshop tools that never get looked after or kept sharp)?

Can you experience a range of tool types from different manufacturers that suit all budgets, and do they have good quality, well-maintained machines or at the other end of the scale, very expensive high production kit that you are never likely to use in your own workshop?

Does the tutor keep their teaching up to date, with new ideas and innovations and investigating new trends? Can they accommodate different learning styles?

How big is the workshop? Does it have separate areas for hand tool work, a machine shop and a separate classroom for design, or theory delivery? Will other workshop users interfere with your learning environment? Will you have your own bench and workspace and a good amount of room to spread yourself out? Is the workshop well lit and warm?

Is the workshop well managed and does it comply to all regulations, LEV, Fire safety, first aid trained staff, using ACOP and COSHH compliant? Do you think it is a professionally run workshop?

During the time you are in the workshop is there only one course running at a time, or are the tutors trying to deal with different subject areas and groups of students.

Is your course in a commercial workshop which also teaches, if so, what happens if a paying job runs over – how does this effect your learning experience?

If you ask a question, does the tutor have a wide range of experience to be able to answer it fully?

What materials will you be using - is it limited to softwoods like pine or will you be enjoying and learning about a whole range of quality hardwood timber products, glues and polishes.

Will the materials you use be dry and well selected for you? Or will your treasured course project warp, twist and fail through poor timber management.

Finally and probably most importantly, do you think you would enjoy being taught by the tutor i.e., do you want to spend forty hours with this person?

Cheers Peter

=D>


Are you sure you have covered everything Peter :wink: LOL

You made an important point regarding teaching qualifications, and that is a fair point because it is all to easy for a professional woodworker (Cabinet Maker, Joiner, Carpenter Boatbuilder etc) to say I can teach you a subject but the question is do they really know how to deliver the subject professionally? I think this is where teaching qualifications are extremely important because they provide evidence that the person delivering the course has a proven ability to do so. Teachers and lecturers in further and higher education take qualifications so that they are qualified to teach in Colleges etc, so here is the punchline that I've been dying to know what Teaching and Assessing qualifications have you gained Peter and where did you gained them?

Another quite important question: what qualification do your long term students gain at the end of their course, is it an in house qualification or is it an award by a nationally recognised organisation like the City & Guilds Institute?

I know I have put this question to you Peter but it is also equally put to the other course providers who have contributed on here so far if they wish to answer it.

Mark

 

[Jacob]

....
Tell you what, Jacob - since you have such a low opinion of people running introductory woodworking courses ...

I haven't a low opinion of the courses (I know nothing much about them) I just get p|ssed off with all the advertising.
There's a lot of traders of one sort or another on this forum - if they all started flogging their wares it'd be really boring. Don't mind the occasional discrete reference to what they do - it's not uninteresting obviously, but let's have less of this blatant banging of the drum.
They often have little teams of forelock pulling fans in tow, who encourage them.
I suppose we are all vulnerable to a bit of flattery - if people treat you like a guru you may start thinking you actually are one!
Worst victim of this form of flattery was St Jim Krenov R.I.P. - who sometimes seemed not to know what all the fuss was about and spent a lot of time protesting his innocence!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

....
Tell you what, Jacob - since you have such a low opinion of people running introductory woodworking courses ...

I haven't a low opinion of the courses (I know nothing much about them) I just get p|ssed off with all the advertising.
There's a lot of traders of one sort or another on this forum - if they all started flogging their wares it'd be really boring. Don't mind the occasional discrete reference to what they do - it's not uninteresting obviously, but let's have less of this blatant banging of the drum.
They often have little teams of forelock pulling fans in tow, who encourage them.
I suppose we are all vulnerable to a bit of flattery - if people treat you like a guru you may start thinking you actually are one!
Worst victim of this form of flattery was St Jim Krenov - who spent a lot of time protesting his innocence!

For someone with not much knowledge of the courses under discussion, you do seem to have quite a lot to say.

As for advertising, the members of this forum who run courses don't bang on about it, there being rules an' all, which no doubt the Mods keep a beady eye on. However, if somebody asks them a direct question by posting on the forum, it seems fair enough to me if they provide an answer by posting on said forum - and I don't really see how that can be 'advertising'.

Jacob - seriously, now - if you do have a particular beef with anybody misusing the rules, could you take it up with the Mods via the Private Message system? Otherwise, things might get nastier than is desirable on the public message boards.

 

[Jacob]

.......

Are you sure you have covered everything Peter :wink: LOL

Yes I think he covered everything really thoroughly :roll: yawn

You made an important point regarding teaching qualifications, ....

Good point. On my TOPS/C&G course we were taught by retired tradesmen who had also done a teaching course with respect to their trade. In other words they had years of experience behind them. We got a certificate or something - but it was well deserved if you had lasted the full stretch and got the marks.
Many of these modern private courses are not recognised particularly by anybody and really are just tasters for amateurs - mainly early retired I guess, and not hard up. Could be wrong.

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Are you sure you have covered everything Peter :wink: LOL

You made an important point regarding teaching qualifications, and that is a fair point because it is all to easy for a professional woodworker (Cabinet Maker, Joiner, Carpenter Boatbuilder etc) to say I can teach you a subject but the question is do they really know how to deliver the subject professionally? I think this is where teaching qualifications are extremely important because they provide evidence that the person delivering the course has a proven ability to do so. Teachers and lecturers in further and higher education take qualifications so that they are qualified to teach in Colleges etc, so here is the punchline that I've been dying to know what Teaching and Assessing qualifications have you gained Peter and where did you gained them?

Another quite important question: what qualification do your long term students gain at the end of their course, is it an in house qualification or is it an award by a nationally recognised organisation like the City & Guilds Institute?

I know I have put this question to you Peter but it is also equally put to the other course providers who have contributed on here so far if they wish to answer it.

Mark

Mark - I think if the courses under discussion were intended to lead to a Nationally recognised trade qualification, your points would be very valid. However, in this instance, the courses are intended to be almost a replacement for the sort of introduction to basic woodwork that used to be commonly taught in secondary schools, and now isn't. They're really aimed at people who want to do a bit in their shed at weekends, but want to do a bit more than just potter about. They could be a foundation for higher things, but could be all many people want or need. Nobody doing them seeks a formal qualification, just some basic skill and knowledge for the fun of it. Thus, I don't think formal teaching qualifications are really needed, just the demonstrable ability to do what is being taught.

 

[Jacob]

...
For someone with not much knowledge of the courses under discussion, you do seem to have quite a lot to say......

That's because I'm not commenting on the course, I'm objecting to the relentless self promotion and free advertising.

 

[AJB Temple]

Jacob - there is a solution for you: just don't read the threads. It is peculiar really, quite often you make useful contributions to threads in a down to earth way, and then blow it completely with derogatory remarks which unfortunately tend in the eyes of others to demean you and undermine what you say. That is a pity. I do read your contributions often as there are gems occasionally, but the ranting repetition (as on this thread) becomes tiresome.

Personally, I have found the contributions from the course providers to be suitable and relevant to what this forum is about.

 

[meccarroll]

Are you sure you have covered everything Peter :wink: LOL

You made an important point regarding teaching qualifications, and that is a fair point because it is all to easy for a professional woodworker (Cabinet Maker, Joiner, Carpenter Boatbuilder etc) to say I can teach you a subject but the question is do they really know how to deliver the subject professionally? I think this is where teaching qualifications are extremely important because they provide evidence that the person delivering the course has a proven ability to do so. Teachers and lecturers in further and higher education take qualifications so that they are qualified to teach in Colleges etc, so here is the punchline that I've been dying to know what Teaching and Assessing qualifications have you gained Peter and where did you gained them?

Another quite important question: what qualification do your long term students gain at the end of their course, is it an in house qualification or is it an award by a nationally recognised organisation like the City & Guilds Institute?

I know I have put this question to you Peter but it is also equally put to the other course providers who have contributed on here so far if they wish to answer it.

Mark

Mark - I think if the courses under discussion were intended to lead to a Nationally recognised trade qualification, your points would be very valid. However, in this instance, the courses are intended to be almost a replacement for the sort of introduction to basic woodwork that used to be commonly taught in secondary schools, and now isn't. They're really aimed at people who want to do a bit in their shed at weekends, but want to do a bit more than just potter about. They could be a foundation for higher things, but could be all many people want or need. Nobody doing them seeks a formal qualification, just some basic skill and knowledge for the fun of it. Thus, I don't think formal teaching qualifications are really needed, just the demonstrable ability to do what is being taught.

Maybe if I put it this way: I've asked a couple of questions the course providers now have an opportunity to answer and maybe provide further information

 

[custard]

Incidentally, the same variability that is found on paid for training also exists on C&G courses. On the one hand there are outstanding C&G colleges like Chichester, who seem to turn out World Skills Championship medal winners every year, on the other hand I hear of colleges where the students chuck tools around and vandalise each others work, while demotivated instructors sit around with a couldn't care less attitude.

 

[meccarroll]

Incidentally, the same variability that is found on paid for training also exists on C&G courses. On the one hand there are outstanding C&G colleges like Chichester, who seem to turn out World Skills Championship medal winners every year, on the other hand I hear of colleges where the students chuck tools around and vandalise each others work, while demotivated instructors sit around with a couldn't care less attitude.

Yes Iv'e seen this happen too and it's not an overstatement to say you need to have properly trained staff to deal with the situation.

 

[lurker]

...
For someone with not much knowledge of the courses under discussion, you do seem to have quite a lot to say......

That's because I'm not commenting on the course, I'm objecting to the relentless self promotion and free advertising.

Jacob,
That is simply not true

 

[Jacob]

...
For someone with not much knowledge of the courses under discussion, you do seem to have quite a lot to say......

That's because I'm not commenting on the course, I'm objecting to the relentless self promotion and free advertising.

Jacob,
That is simply not true

What isn't true?

 

[Jacob]

.........
Maybe if I put it this way: I've asked a couple of questions the course providers now have an opportunity to answer and maybe provide further information

Peter Sefton is highly qualified - it's on his web site.

 

[kevinlightfoot]

In the 1980s myself and Mick O,Donnell tried to unify the people who were setting up courses and training in woodturning we were aware of people who will remain nameless setting up as woodturning instructors who were neither teachers lecturers or even decent wood turners .We set up a system for training woodturning instructors and organised a few conferences to try and get this unification under way.After much hard and unprofitable work we realised we would not succeed in our venture.Th e main obstacle was the fact that people were loathe to understand that being able to turn a bowl or run off a set of spindles did not really mean they had the ability to teach other how to do the same,and the never ending question of who teaches the teachers and who says theirs is the correct way anyway.I rapidly became disillusioned with the whole world of woodwork teaching and trained through five hard years at university to become a primary school teacher.During that time I discovered that some of the lecturers were themselves very poor at passing on their expertise as teachers and had in fact left the teaching profession as failed front line practitioners.The old saying comes to mind of those that can ,do,and those that can't ,teach.I now consider that a lot of these woodworking teachers have to turn to running courses because they haven't been able to make it in the cut and thrust world of making for a living .You should be aware also of professional bodies who allow you onto their register .In 1983 I applied to be placed on The Regiter Of The Worshipful Company of Woodturners,I was invited to interview and to submit a few samples of my work for the examiners perusal.I took a day off work and travelled quite a distance to the Cotswolds where I was interviewed byCecil Jordan a turner of repute the day was quite stressful on my part hoping that I was up to scratch.After a few weeks wait I was informed I was to be placed on the register,I had made it I was indeed a professional turner,Cecil Jordan said so!
All was well until at a gathering of turners at Loughborough I happened to be talking to a well known turner and teacher who was also on the aforementioned Register and I asked him about his interview.Oh he said I didn't have an interview I just telephoned and asked to be placed on the Register and was immediately accepted.I promptly asked to be removed from the Register as the qualification wasn't worth a jot.This type of thing goes on and you should take any qualification claims with a large pinch of salt.

 

[Jacob]

I.......This type of thing goes on and you should take any qualification claims with a large pinch of salt.

Well yes. A good teacher isn't necessarily a good practitioner either, and vice versa. Either way it's a vocation.
How to do things and how to learn to do things are very different.

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

In the software business I used to run one of the most common mistakes was to promote the best "tekky" in to the line management role. Surprise surprise, they couldn't delegate, couldn't listen, frequently undermined subordinates and were openly critical of their work if it failed to meet the standards of their own veteran status! Ask them to absorb more subtle management skills like motivating a team or handling a tricky client situation that required diplomacy and BOOM, all hell would break loose.

So it is with teaching. Teaching is a skill and it's very different from making. Making is a self absorbing process, teaching is quite the opposite, nothing to do with self. It is unsurprising that many competent makers fail to make good teachers and equally, many average or worse makers can in fact make great teachers.

A few good makers might well be able to teach too.

 

[AJB Temple]

Teaching at high level is a funny old game. I went to a very old university. The dons (lecturers) were mainly recruited and retained for their academic research skills - at which they excelled. Research is what brought both the money and kudos into the universities. Teaching was a requirement of the job usually, but some, perhaps many, were not gifted in this area and others also lacked interpersonal skills to a remarkable degree.

Several years of study to doctorate level taught me that teaching qualifications are rarely an indicator of good teachers. I will give you an example. I sent my eldest son to a prep school in the private system. They were not required to employ traditionally qualified teachers. The school employed a South African engineer to teach technology (or whatever they called it - but various craft skills anyway). He had spent 20 or so years working in industry after his degree and had no teaching qualifications to his name. He was universally regarded by the students in both the prep school and the senior school as an inspirational man. Unemployable in the state sector though.

 

[kevinlightfoot]

Glad to see agreement with my point !

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

At my university, the only male without a doctorate was openly scorned by the staff (all of whom were actively engaged in publishing their research). He was in fact an ex-secondary school teacher. Like your South African, he was easily the best teacher as voted by the student body. He had no ego to defend, it just wasn't about him, it was about making the subject matter interesting and memorable and then helping people to understand specific problems in complex areas of knowledge. Lovely bloke, knocked the rest of the egomaniacs into a cocked hat!