Which course, Paul Sellers or Peter Sefton

[woodbrains]

Hello,

I wonder how much it costs to stop him from talking? I'm starting a fund.

Mike

 

[NickN]

With respect fellas, taking the driving/distance out of the equation, £30 for a two hour talk seems pretty reasonable to me. Maybe you'll come away with some new insight, maybe not, but it seems the price you believe a highly skilled and respected woodworker's time is worth is unrealistic. And that goes for anyone of that calibre, not just Paul Sellers. My two cents anyway.

With equal respect in return, I happen to think that a highly skilled woodworker's time is worth considerably more than £15 an hour, and I would and have happily paid closer to £25 an hour for practical tuition. But two things make this event a non-starter for me, one, it's at least six hours of my time and three gallons of fuel used, making that a far higher cost, and two, it's not practical based but a talk (and with the work I do I'm pretty bad at staying awake for talks and lectures, give me hands on any day).

Actually I'm a bit surprised he hasn't offered a paid for live streaming version, given how internet savvy his organisation appears to be.

 

[El Barto]

With respect fellas, taking the driving/distance out of the equation, £30 for a two hour talk seems pretty reasonable to me. Maybe you'll come away with some new insight, maybe not, but it seems the price you believe a highly skilled and respected woodworker's time is worth is unrealistic. And that goes for anyone of that calibre, not just Paul Sellers. My two cents anyway.

With equal respect in return, I happen to think that a highly skilled woodworker's time is worth considerably more than £15 an hour, and I would and have happily paid closer to £25 an hour for practical tuition. But two things make this event a non-starter for me, one, it's at least six hours of my time and three gallons of fuel used, making that a far higher cost, and two, it's not practical based but a talk (and with the work I do I'm pretty bad at staying awake for talks and lectures, give me hands on any day).

Actually I'm a bit surprised he hasn't offered a paid for live streaming version, given how internet savvy his organisation appears to be.

Well I did start by saying taking the driving/distance out of the equation so...

Live streaming would be cool.

 

[Jacob]

Can't see 2 hours of lecture being worth £30 (and a day trip) unless he's got something magic up his sleeve which seems unlikely.
Maybe it's all gone to his head - I hope he's not trying to be a bit of a pop star! Won't be throwing my knickers!

Woss appened to our Dave he used to post a lot promoting his courses - sharpening etc. has he retired?

 

[Beau]

Can't see 2 hours of lecture being worth £30 (and a day trip) unless he's got something magic up his sleeve which seems unlikely.
Maybe it's all gone to his head - I hope he's not trying to be a bit of a pop star! Won't be throwing my knickers!

Woss appened to our Dave he used to post a lot promoting his courses - sharpening etc. has he retired?

Looks like he still has plenty on http://www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk/course-dates/

 

[Mr T]

To get back to the OP! I have been wondering why questions about courses often seem to be put in a binary format, Paul or Peter. Actually there are lots of courses out there. Here are a few providers off the top of my head:

John Lloyd Sussex http://www.johnlloydfinefurniture.c...ture-making-courses/furniture-making-courses/
Marc Fish Sussex http://www.marcfish.co.uk/cabinet_making_tuition_short.htm
David Charleswoorth Devon http://www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk/
David Savage Devon http://www.finefurnituremaker.com/short-courses/
Waters and acland Cumbria http://www.watersandacland.co.uk/furniture-school/furniture-making-courses/#ctc
West Dean Sussex https://www.westdean.org.uk/study/s...ter_category=Woodworking+and+furniture+making
Wood Workshop Cumbria http://www.woodworkshop.co.uk/
Chippendale School East Lothian http://www.chippendaleschool.com/cabinet-making-courses/short-furniture-courses/

Also some chancer in Ilkley offers courses. That's nine providers and I'm sure there are many more. Does anyone have any comments on any of these other providers rather than just Peter and Paul.

Chris

 

[Jacob]

Can't see 2 hours of lecture being worth £30 (and a day trip) unless he's got something magic up his sleeve which seems unlikely.
Maybe it's all gone to his head - I hope he's not trying to be a bit of a pop star! Won't be throwing my knickers!

Woss appened to our Dave he used to post a lot promoting his courses - sharpening etc. has he retired?

Looks like he still has plenty on http://www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk/course-dates/

Sharpening weekend, £250: I presume that includes accommodation, all meals, free beer, massage, use of the pool and the billiard room and 24 hour room service?

 

[Beau]

Can't see 2 hours of lecture being worth £30 (and a day trip) unless he's got something magic up his sleeve which seems unlikely.
Maybe it's all gone to his head - I hope he's not trying to be a bit of a pop star! Won't be throwing my knickers!

Woss appened to our Dave he used to post a lot promoting his courses - sharpening etc. has he retired?

Looks like he still has plenty on http://www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk/course-dates/

Sharpening weekend, £250: I presume that includes accommodation, all meals, free beer, massage, use of the pool and the billiard room and 24 hour room service?

If I had the skills and reputation to run course at those rates I would. We are in this to make a living after all.



From the boiler thread get the impression plumbers can earn 1k in a few days. Whats that from a few years experience and a few thousand pounds worth of tools and a van? Maybe 10000 guys and guys equally as good?

The likes of David have a big premises with 10s of thousands pounds of kit and all the bills that go with a building. Plus vast experience and the ability to share it and one of the best craftsman in country and begrudge him earning a few quid?

 

[meccarroll]

Can't see 2 hours of lecture being worth £30 (and a day trip) unless he's got something magic up his sleeve which seems unlikely.
Maybe it's all gone to his head - I hope he's not trying to be a bit of a pop star! Won't be throwing my knickers!

Woss appened to our Dave he used to post a lot promoting his courses - sharpening etc. has he retired?

Looks like he still has plenty on http://www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk/course-dates/

Sharpening weekend, £250: I presume that includes accommodation, all meals, free beer, massage, use of the pool and the billiard room and 24 hour room service?

I agree Jacob £250 does at first sight seem a lot of money to learn how to sharpen your tools and I would not like to have to pay it myself (I do the job for a living) but it is a pretty standard charge for two days tuition by a privately run school. These charges are very much in line with what a local college might also charge but privately run schools often take fewer students on each course so there is more time for one to one learning during the course. It is just the norm Jacob, these courses are all pretty much the same price. I think the main thing to look for is a detailed breakdown of the course content, class size and any additional costs that might be charged.

Mark

 

[iNewbie]

Can't see 2 hours of lecture being worth £30 (and a day trip) unless he's got something magic up his sleeve which seems unlikely.
Maybe it's all gone to his head - I hope he's not trying to be a bit of a pop star! Won't be throwing my knickers!

Woss appened to our Dave he used to post a lot promoting his courses - sharpening etc. has he retired?

Looks like he still has plenty on http://www.davidcharlesworth.co.uk/course-dates/

Sharpening weekend, £250: I presume that includes accommodation, all meals, free beer, massage, use of the pool and the billiard room and 24 hour room service?

Lathering you up in 3-in-1 might cost a bit more on the massage front.

 

[sploo]

I agree Jacob £250 does at first sight seem a lot of money to learn how to sharpen your tools and I would not like to have to pay it myself (I do the job for a living) but it is a pretty standard charge for two days tuition by a privately run school. These charges are very much in line with what a local college might also charge but privately run schools often take fewer students on each course so there is more time for one to one learning during the course. It is just the norm Jacob, these courses are all pretty much the same price. I think the main thing to look for is a detailed breakdown of the course content, class size and any additional costs that might be charged.

Mark

It's also worth working those numbers through in terms of subtracting costs (heating, lighting, kit, public liability insurance, the fact it probably includes VAT - which the teacher doesn't get to keep, and then business related taxes).

If you earned £100 per day (after all costs and taxes), worked 5 days per week, and factored in losing 4 weeks to holiday and illness, that's only £24,000 per year. Hardly rolling in it. Of course, you'd have to then charge a lot more than £100 day in order to make £100 per day after costs. Even more if you weren't earning every week day of every week.

Lathering you up in 3-in-1 might cost a bit more on the massage front.

Happy finish sir?

 

[Mr T]

If you earned £100 per day (after all costs and taxes), worked 5 days per week, and factored in losing 4 weeks to holiday and illness, that's only £24,000 per year. Hardly rolling in it. Of course, you'd have to then charge a lot more than £100 day in order to make £100 per day after costs. Even more if you weren't earning every week day of every week.

That's a reasonable calculation Sploo. Most course providers do not teach solidly all week every week. Preparation for a course can take a few days to start with, then there is time taken developing new courses and all the numerous admin type jobs that need to be done. So I actually teach no more than 13 days per month, but I'm still busy even though my business is now devoted to teaching.

Chris

 

[Peter Sefton]

I think when assessing a course it is worth considering a few factors which may affect your expectation or experience.

Who exactly is teaching the course? Not the same as whose name is over the door. The person delivering the subject may be the technician or a workshop assistant; and in some cases it can be a fellow student!

Will the tutor be dedicated to the students that have paid for their time and expertise for the whole duration of the course, or will they be running other courses at the same time, or teaching your course for part of the day and leaving you with others to deliver the majority of your learning, or even dealing with their commercial customers? What is the main focus of their business and consider how that will that impact you and your experience?

Does your tutor have any teaching and/or assessing qualifications, and are they experienced at teaching or are they a commercial workshop that has a bit of spare bench space and a desire to improve their cash flow?

Is the teacher experienced in that subject area and has the facilities to teach it fully. In sharpening for example does the teacher demonstrate a wide variety of medium and have them available for you to use?

What facilities do they have - a good range of tools, machines or veneering equipment that is relevant to you and your own workshop?

Is the workshop in an easily accessible location with local amenities, and is there a range of accommodation nearby to suit your budget, if you wish to stay locally during your course.

Will you need to bring your own tools or will you be issued with your own quality toolkit (not shared workshop tools that never get looked after or kept sharp)?

Can you experience a range of tool types from different manufacturers that suit all budgets, and do they have good quality, well-maintained machines or at the other end of the scale, very expensive high production kit that you are never likely to use in your own workshop?

Does the tutor keep their teaching up to date, with new ideas and innovations and investigating new trends? Can they accommodate different learning styles?

How big is the workshop? Does it have separate areas for hand tool work, a machine shop and a separate classroom for design, or theory delivery? Will other workshop users interfere with your learning environment? Will you have your own bench and workspace and a good amount of room to spread yourself out? Is the workshop well lit and warm?

Is the workshop well managed and does it comply to all regulations, LEV, Fire safety, first aid trained staff, using ACOP and COSHH compliant? Do you think it is a professionally run workshop?

During the time you are in the workshop is there only one course running at a time, or are the tutors trying to deal with different subject areas and groups of students.

Is your course in a commercial workshop which also teaches, if so, what happens if a paying job runs over – how does this effect your learning experience?

If you ask a question, does the tutor have a wide range of experience to be able to answer it fully?

What materials will you be using - is it limited to softwoods like pine or will you be enjoying and learning about a whole range of quality hardwood timber products, glues and polishes.

Will the materials you use be dry and well selected for you? Or will your treasured course project warp, twist and fail through poor timber management.

Finally and probably most importantly, do you think you would enjoy being taught by the tutor i.e., do you want to spend forty hours with this person?

Cheers Peter

 

[Jacob]

.....
Finally and probably most importantly, do you think you would enjoy being taught by the tutor i.e., do you want to spend forty hours with this person?

Cheers Peter

Or would you be better off spending the money just buying a load of wood and getting stuck in?
If you have spent more on courses and tools rather than wood, you haven't really begun.
Procrastination will butter no parsnips!

 

[MrTeroo]

I see you are pretty new Teroo (no offence intend, just observation). It won't take you long to realise Jacob simply does this as some sort of twisted sport. Best to ignore as witout oxygen a fire will die.

Terry.

Ok

 

[custard]

I think when assessing a course it is worth considering a few factors which may affect your expectation or experience.

Excellent list.

If you're considering a longer course I'd add a few additional points,

-is there a structured syllabus?
-does each project in that syllabus have an identified learning outcome that delivers a necessary skill to the student and progresses logically onto the next project?
-beware courses where the student is given an overly large project too soon, some courses deliberately give students projects that are designed so that they'll be fully occupied with mundane repetitive tasks and won't pester the staff.
-clearly understand the workshop's safety policy. I know of one course where students are told that they're safer using unguarded saws because they'll pay more attention.
-what hours are guidance available? Some courses only have instructors for part of the day, if you hit an intractable problem outside of those hours then you're left twiddling your thumbs.
-a critical test is, would you be capable of replicating the projects after the course has finished in your own workshop? If the answer's no then something's wrong. I've heard of courses where students get to use sophisticated pre-built jigs or specialised equipment, or the teaching staff have pre-made particularly complex components, so that the student can proudly display an item and say "I made this", but they haven't a hope of ever making it again.
-beware courses that claim to give you the skills to become a professional designer/maker. You can get a start in the right direction, but the number of designer/makers who make a viable income purely from the fruits of their furniture making can be counted on the fingers of a particularly accident prone machine operator. Plus it's years not months before you acquire the full suite of skills and the speed to work commercially.
-does the workshop has an easily identified design ethic? If so make sure it's something you like, because in lots of subtle and not so subtle ways that's what you'll end up qualified to make.
-what would happen if the course proprietor or an instructor fell ill? Is the workshop sufficiently staffed that it could carry on and complete your training? I could point to multiple instances on both short and long courses where this has happened, if you've taken a sabattical break from a career to attend a course then that's a problem.

And to pick up Peter's final point about how well you get on with the tutor, that's worth re-stating. For every great woodworking tutor out there there's another who has a giant chip on their shoulder, or only teaches to make the numbers add up and really just wants to crack on with their own projects, or uses teaching as a bully pulpit to big up their own ego and spout off about their crackpot theories, or actually isn't quite as skilled as they'd have you believe. Over the years I've met quite a few of these guys and their ex students, it's pretty sobering how few genuinely professional and competent instructors (like Peter and his team) there actually are, so buyer beware.

 

[Jacob]

I see you are pretty new Teroo (no offence intend, just observation). It won't take you long to realise Jacob simply does this as some sort of twisted sport. Best to ignore as witout oxygen a fire will die.

Terry.

Ok

Basically these people should be paying for the advertising - this is a forum for woodworkers , not salesmen.

I'm happy for them to join in chats etc but the numerous self promoting posts is really over the top and should not be allowed.
It's commonly known as "spam".

Look at the rules we have about selling our odds and ends of tools - this is to exclude overt sales people from exploiting a free resource intended for a our mutual self help.

 

[PAC1]

Jacob, the thread was started by someone asking which course was best. The course providers only commented when asked direct questions or bated by you. To now suggest they should not be allowed to defend themselves from your prejudiced views is the height of hypocrisy.
Earlier you suggested people should not go on their courses. Yet even you had training of some sort whether that was an indentured apprenticeship or a TOPS course I do not know nor care but to suggest people should not seek out training for our trade is again hypocrisy.
I know it is best not to bite on your bating but on behalf of those course providers, the record needed stating clearly.

 

[Jacob]

Jacob, the thread was started by someone asking which course was best. The course providers only commented when asked direct questions or bated by you. To now suggest they should not be allowed to defend themselves from your prejudiced views is the height of hypocrisy.
Earlier you suggested people should not go on their courses. Yet even you had training of some sort whether that was indentured apprenticeship or a TOPS course I do not know nor care but to suggest people should not seek out training for our trade is again hypocrisy.
I know it is best not to bite, on your bating but on behalf of those course providers, the record needed stating clearly.

I don't have a prejudiced view. I've no idea about the quality of these courses. I just get a bit brassed off with endless self promotion and free advertising.
Ask yourself how many of their posts are about woodwork topics but without reference to the courses (and the tools etc) they are selling.
I'm sure Peter is fully aware of what I am saying.
Another notorious self promoter used to answer wood-work questions with things like "it's in my second book, third video" etc, in other words "I'm not telling you the answer - go and buy my book"! :lol:

 

[sploo]

That's a reasonable calculation Sploo. Most course providers do not teach solidly all week every week. Preparation for a course can take a few days to start with, then there is time taken developing new courses and all the numerous admin type jobs that need to be done. So I actually teach no more than 13 days per month, but I'm still busy even though my business is now devoted to teaching.

Chris

I have friends who run their own (small) businesses, so I frequently hear the "I don't make much money" line :wink: (but to be fair they do back it up with realistic cost examples)

Or would you be better off spending the money just buying a load of wood and getting stuck in?
If you have spent more on courses and tools rather than wood, you haven't really begun.
Procrastination will butter no parsnips!

Practice is absolutely key - going to a weekend (or even a week) course isn't suddenly going to make you any good. However, I tend to find that a good course (be it woodworking or something entirely unrelated) tends to give me a few "take home" messages - techniques or examples that really gel; things that answer a question or correct a technique issue. The kind of thing where you could spend years struggling with something, when it really just took an experienced practitioner to watch you do something (incorrectly) and give you some advice.