Which Adhesive?

[PMK54]

I'd appreciate some advice from regular woodworkers please.

I'm planning to do some joinery using mainly 'Redwood' and am just about at the stage where I'm going to ruin some perfectly good lengths of timber by turning them into sawdust, as I learn the ropes (having read a lot). Eventually I will end up with several pieces that will need to be glued up and there I'm a bit flumoxed.

When I was doing woodwork all those years ago at school PVA was THE material to use, but now there appear to be for example, polyurethane adhesives, and expanding ones and brands named for Gorillas plus Titebond....and they come in indoor and outdoor varieties. Oh yes, I forgot Cascamite.

So which is the best one to use? For example on finger (box?) joints, dovetails, biscuited butt joints. Also joints on window sashes - are they scribed mortice joints or doweled?

Thanks.

 

[Odo]

I can't post links, but Google 'woodgears glue test'

Might be of some use.

 

[RogerP]

I use Titebond 2 Premium for most stuff and I'm also trying Ever Build D4 Premium and so far seems good and sets a bit quicker.

 

[Teckel]

+1 for titebond.
If your joints are good most PVA glues will do the job..

 

[woodbloke]

Everbuild D4 is the stuff. Fully waterproof, quick setting...and cheap!...I pay less than a fiver for a litre - Rob

 

[condeesteso]

Not come across Everbuild til now, will have to try some.
Years ago I used Cascamite, but it has a rather short shelf-life even powdered (before mixed) which I found to be a big problem.
I use pva (Evostick etc) for general basic stuff, polyurethane when outdoors structural (Joiners Mate, Screwfix... a sod to get off skin though), but for furniture etc, Titebond Original or 3 for the longer open time.
I suspect this is like many other things - there is no one single perfect solution.

 

[undergroundhunter]

+1 for Titebond, I tend to use Titebond 3, but any "yellow" glue is a general all rounder.

 

[AndyT]

Like Douglas said - no one perfect solution. There's a huge range of woodwork, and what is right in one job would be less than best in another. Ordinary white PVA is excellent, but for darker timber you might prefer something which dries dark rather than clear - but that would only matter if you have a glue line which might be visible, for example if building up legs from thinner sections.
Sometimes quick setting time is a help - you can get one assembly out of the cramps and get on with the next - but if it's a complex job, something with a slower set would be useful. I like Titebond liquid hide glue for that reason. It's not heat and waterproof - which would be a disadvantage on an exterior door but not on antique restoration.

 

[jimi43]

I spent some time repairing guitar necks...where they snapped at the headstock..usually mahogany and sometimes multiple fractures with splintered edges.

Being in contact with American forums, I constantly heard about Titebond quite a while before it was generally on sale over in the UK and when Poolewood Machinery at Sittingbourne imported Titebond Original...I thought I would try it...it wasn't cheap at the time.

The product website boasted that the joint was "stronger than the wood"...so...being forever the sceptic...I thought I would try that claim and glued two pieces of mahogany together exactly as per instructions and let it set for a few days.

Clamping one end in a vise...and hitting the other piece very hard with a hammer caused the wood to fracture quite spectacularly but NOT at the joint.....but quite a bit from it...through the wood grain. So the claim was true. Every single neck repair I have done since has held without exception.

It is absolutely not waterproof...(DAMHIK!)...but Titebond III is. However I found that it was not as strong for internal use...which Titebond also admit.

I have never had any success with polyurethanes..even the Titebond one.

I will be trying D4...why not...nothing to lose at the price. But not with traditional interior work just yet...I'll carry on with Titebond Original on the basis of "if it ain't broke...don't try and fix it!"

Jim

 

[AndyT]

Evo-Stik Resin W used to have the same claim on the bottle - "Stronger than the wood itself" - I can clearly remember the packaging on the bottle in my dad's garage. There was also a nice illustration on the Cascamite tin showing two horses failing to pull apart a glued joint.

Nothing new under the sun, as someone said a long time ago.

 

[PMK54]

Many thanks for the advice, I'll place a few orders and try them on a few bits of scrap and the first (probably disasterous) box I turn out.

 

[PMK54]

One point I picked up somewhere with polyurethane is that its tendency to expand on curing can mess up blind dowelled joints maybe?

 

[mrpercysnodgrass]

I have just about every glue in the workshop, the one I go to first is scotch, it just cannot be beaten on usability and price, the downside to it is you will need to invest in a glue pot which you can pick up from a car boot or ebay from £5.00 to £20.00 but should last you a life time. I have just this week replaced my old glue pot, it was in use all day every day for the last thirty years! If you are doing internal joinery and you are not experienced then scotch is very forgiving, you will have a good amount of time to clamp and if it all goes wrong, the glue is reversible, so you can take your joint apart and re-align. If you have gaps or holes to fill then you can mix some saw dust into it to make it into a filler, you can also mix pigment to it to colour it to the timber you are using.
The other glues I use are Titebond III, good if you know the piece is going into a damp atmosphere, West System epoxy for all dodgy structural repairs, fish glue, similar to scotch but used cold, it has a very long open time for all those complicated jobs that take an age to clamp and make sure all is square. I also use cascamite for the oily timbers, although scotch is also good for those. The only one I don't use is polyurethane, horrible stuff!

 

[jimi43]

....................the one I go to first is scotch, it just cannot be beaten on usability and price, the downside to it is you will need to invest in a glue pot which you can pick up from a car boot or ebay from £5.00 to £20.00 but should last you a life time. I have just this week replaced my old glue pot, it was in use all day every day for the last thirty years! .....

.............The only one I don't use is polyurethane, horrible stuff!

With you all the way there...except you might be paying a bit over the odds for the glue pot. I started out with two metal tins and a little electric ring...the 60s bedsit jobbies....until I found this for a quid in a field of cars....

I found the bottle that polyurethane comes in has a fairly low drag coefficient when lobbing towards the bin though! :mrgreen:

Jim

 

[yetloh]

I agree with most of the comments. Hide glue for drawer dovetails cannot be bettered - if it is not quite square, just heat with a hot air gun and reclamp.

Cascamite for complicated glue ups because of its long open time. Shelf life is not a problem if you buy it fresh which means from someone who sells plenty of it - Axminster or AGWoodcare (who call it Resinmite) who are cheaper and supply a 750g tub which is a useful size. Split it into two or three airtight conyainers and always reseal immediately you have taken the powder you need. That way, it will last for ages.

PVAs (including Titebond) are a good all round glue and have some rresidual flexibility which can be useful in some applications eg chairs.

Polyurethanes are messy. Some are attracted by their gap filling properties but, if there are gaps, they are very weak.

As others have said, there is no glue which is perfect for every job.

Jim

 

[woodbloke]

Cascamite for complicated glue ups because of its long open time. Shelf life is not a problem if you buy it fresh which means from someone who sells plenty of it - Axminster or AGWoodcare (who call it Resinmite) who are cheaper and supply a 750g tub which is a useful size. Split it into two or three airtight conyainers and always reseal immediately you have taken the powder you need. That way, it will last for ages.

Jim

...and keep a couple of silica gel sachets in each container as well. I also keep the bulk of it in the airing cupboard where it's always nice and toasty - Rob

 

[PMK54]

Thanks very much for the extra advice. I like the thought of throwing bad glue into the waste bin! It's funny, I had in mind that many glues were developed for the DeHavilland Mosquito but after doing a bit of reading that idea of mine appears to be wrong. I hadn't realised yetloh that Titebond is a PVA, I wonder if it's a 'special brew' or just good marketing that makes it popular? I read it does the job but so does home-grown Evo'W' too it would seem.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Aerolite was apparently developed for glueing Mosquitos - hence the name.
It's very good, but expensive

 

[custard]

When I was doing woodwork all those years ago at school PVA was THE material to use, but now there appear to be for example, polyurethane adhesives, and expanding ones and brands named for Gorillas plus Titebond....and they come in indoor and outdoor varieties. Oh yes, I forgot Cascamite.

So which is the best one to use? For example on finger (box?) joints, dovetails, biscuited butt joints. Also joints on window sashes - are they scribed mortice joints or doweled?

I "inventory" several adhesives; epoxy, cascamite, polyurethane, hot melt glue gun, scotch (two types), and a few types of Titebond. However, Titebond III is what I use 90% of the time, it's the default choice...in other words I have to have a reason before I use anything else.

For the joints you're talking about, especially if you're getting back into woodworking after a long break, why not just make life simple for yourself and get the smallest container you can find of Titebond III?

1. Yes, you can get cheaper, but the cost of glue relative to the cost of your time and other materials is insignificant.
2. Get the smallest size because glue has a shelf life, and if you're working in an unheated space then chuck out any glue if its ever been frozen.
3. Get Titebond because they do the best job of providing detailed information and support for their products, see their website link below

http://www.titebond.com/Index.aspx

 

[woodbloke]

However, Titebond III is what I use 90% of the time, it's the default choice...in other words I have to have a reason before I use anything else.

For the joints you're talking about, especially if you're getting back into woodworking after a long break, why not just make life simple for yourself and get the smallest container you can find of Titebond III?

Same here and I agree with you, it was my default glue, but....Everbuild D4 is as good and because it's not imported from the good old USofA, it's a lot, lot cheaper. The last lot of TBIII I bought when it was on offer at Ax (that's some time ago) and the biggest bottle cost me around £25 if memory serves. For £25 I could buy enough D4 to float a battleship on (if they still made battleships :-" )
TBIII is good stuff, but there's glue around which is better simply 'cos it's half (or even less) of the price - Rob