Where does fraud start?

[Zeddedhed]

Those 'while you're here' jobs are the bane of every tradesman life.

The problem is not just with the extra time and resources they suck up, but also the fact that they themselves can often end up causing other issues, or not going to plan. Once you start on a quick job - hanging a curtain rail for example, it can occasionally go sideways on you.

I refurbished a Physiotherapy centre last year just before Christmas and was finishing out on the 22nd December, on time and just about on budget (my budget - it was on a fixed price) and feeling pretty pleased with myself. An orderly close down for Christmas was on the horizon, with an extended and long overdue break. The client was delighted and preparing for a grand re-opening in the new year. Flyers had been sent to customers, an opening do was planned etc etc.

17:30 on the 22nd and I start drilling for the curtain rail. (Who can guess what's coming?)

A big chunk of plaster drops off, the size of small dinner plate. I'd been careful with the drilling - the usual precautions.

The plaster chunk takes a ding from the freshly painted window cill and bounces left, away from the dust sheet and onto the newly laid engineered board floor, where the sharp corner leaves a huge gouge.

The concrete lintel that I was drilling into drops a massive flake from the edge, further dinging up the window cill (bad news) but also scratching the newly fitted acid etched glass with the custom logo of the business etched into it. It couldn't've been more visible and unsightly.

It was too late to go and buy any repair plaster, and the crater was too deep for filler, so the next day repairs to the lintel and wall above were made, the rail fitted and the paintwork touched in. Drying times meant I was still there at 19:00.

There goes the orderly shutdown for Christmas.

The Christmas break was then ruined by having to be in attendance for the glaziers to come and fit new glass and me having to remove two pieces of glued in T&G flooring and make good on a separate day.

All for nothing.

So in reality the £500 from the earlier post had been spent at Christmas and then some.

Having said all that I feel like a right miserable sod when I say no to clients requests like that.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

That reminds me of a job I did at home years ago. I had a window to replace, and I knew there was a likelihood of stone falling from above it as I'd done them before. I boarded up the inside to the width of the piece of ply, which was about 8" short of the top. That's not goint to matter a jot, I thought, as anything that falls is going to fall way outboard of it - it's not going to fall inwards at 45 degrees, is it?
The (upstairs) window came out. Everything above it fell - the "lintel" was held together by bits of scrap iron, part of an old bedstead etc. They new how to build in those days. I watched as a piece of shale about eighteen inches long hit the scaffold and bounced upwards through an arc straight through the small gap and through a brand new glass fibre corner bath. #-o At least it was my own job.

 

[sammy.se]

Some of these stories make my smile but also wince. I'm always nervous when my (DIY) jobs go smoothly... I think, wait for it... Something will go wrong any minute now

Back to earlier thoughts:

Price and quality and scope (what you are getting) needs to be agreed up front.

The cost management side is entirely down to the company / tradesman. If he wants to buy bulk and save money, that's great. Their only obligation is to meet the agreed price and quality and scope.

As a customer I don't mind if the trader manages his costs through trader discounts etc. That's how they run their business. They compete on price and quality, and do whatever is needed to get to the price point/quality customers are happy with.

I think that's fair, and not the customer's business.

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk

 

[Lons]

Spot on Sammy but unfortunately I think you're in a minority where customers are concerned. A lot of it is down to TV scare stories, they choose those carefully because it attracts viewers where the good stories where a tradesman does what he says, no dramas etc wouldn't get the target stats they need.
The internet also makes materials prices transparent, not a bad thing but also not always like for like so a customer sees something on a website and it's always the cheapest that sticks in the mind of course, what he doesn't take into account is that the poor tradesman has to spend time ordering, taking delivery and ultimately has to sort out any potential problems and replacements which is why I refused to fit anything a customer had ordered and used local suppliers where possible.
If you give a reasonably detailed estimate in writing and try hard to stick to that then the price agreed with the customer is 100% legitimate, if you manage to finish quicker then most likely it's because you've put in extra time and effort.

Scenario:

Customer buys a bathroom suite, plumber comes to fit it but there's damage to the bath under the protective plastic and a basin has a hairline crack underneath. Plumber has to go away after spending time ringing the supplier / manufacturer because the husband had ordered the suite and wife at home can't sort it so he wastes more than half a day unpaid, he had arranged for a tiler to come the next day so has to ring him, he also then needs to reshedule other work upsetting his and the tilers other customers.

He fits the suite, all good, gets paid but a few weeks later a bath tap fails due to a manufacturing fault and he has to go back, the bu**er is is centre middle at the back of the bath and a swine to get at, the knock on UNPAID cost is horrendous for the business.
It's not fiction, happened to one of my mates and not as unusual as people might think.

I had an situation a few years ago where I refurbished a bathroom for a neighbour. Expensive suite came from my usual plumbers merchant and took 4 weeks to get from the manufacturer. There was a defect on the shower glass end panel, quick call, I'm a regular customer, plumbers merchant group is a huge customer for the manufacturer so result was an overnight special delivery to me of a replacement panel. Try doing that if you're a one off internet buyer! :roll:

 

[Jake]

I am not defending it, but with no standardised and accepted grading system, one person's"first quality" is the next persons "thirds".

There is a standardised grading system, and a clear meaning to firsts, seconds, thirds. There could be a bit of doubt about which of them applies if the species/origin was not specified, but across none of them will first equate to third in another.

On the basis of the facts stated so far, this is clearly a breach of contract. There's no real additional benefit in going after fraud in the civil sense. It is may well be fraud in the criminal sense, but the police wouldn't be interested anyway so that's entirely hypothetical.

Always interesting to see the tradesmen huddle together after something like this comes out to slag off customers with bad customer stories as way of distracting from the fact another tradesman has clearly done something very dodgy which they presumably wouldn't have done themselves. Don't really get that, brings the whole business into disrepute. Bad apples contaminating the barrel etc.

 

[RogerS]

As far as I'm concerned if my clients get what they were expecting, made or built to an acceptable quality then regardless of price or any savings I've managed to make on purchasing materials it's all good.

As others have said a price is a price. No-one makes them accept it.

Recently I priced a job involving a whole load of drawers (MDF stuff, nothing fancy). I always use Blum Movento runners for my drawer boxes, and clearly say so on my quotes. I charge them to my clients at retail price and then enjoy the saving from my discount. My usual supplier was out of stock of the size I needed, and on searching around the web I found an alternative supplier who was dumping all of their Blum stock as they were no longer going to be stocking it.

I managed to get the runners for less than half of what I'd usually pay, amounting to saving of nearly £500.

Did the customer see any saving?

Not a chance.

Do I feel bad?

Nope.

I don't really feel that it needs any justification but anyone who does this as a job will know that whilst about 50% of your prices work out ok, 25% will hurt you and the other 25% will go better than expected. This is mainly the case when every job is a one off. I accept that if you're manufacturing and selling kitchens as some on here do, then that would be totally unacceptable as a business model, but for the guy who is making and hanging a door one day, a staircase the next followed by a couple of MDF alcove units the above scenario is more likely.

So back to my drawer job - Yes, I was chuffed to have made a good lump on top of my wage and overheads and small margin. But I know for sure that within the next few months or so most of that will have gone due to over-runs, unforseens and general nonsense.

Spot on. =D>

 

[RogerS]

...There were very few jobs that worked out as planned and you could see a customers mind working overtime as the work progressed so when you got there in the morning the dreaded words " I've been thinking" were not what I wanted to hear....

Jeez..I despair at people. You are spot on.

When I lived in London, our block of flats had had a historical damp problem for years. The residents committee and management agents had cheapskated and fudged the issue for years. Long story short...I ended up being the chairman of said residents committee to find the proverbial had hit the fan. We went through all the motions etc, due diligence and chose our contractor.

About a month into the works they explained that they were in a bit of a pickle cashflow-wise since one of their major customers (Sainsbury's) was dragging their heels paying an invoice and so could we pre-pay the next instalment.

Their work to-date was exemplary ..our working relationship spot-on...it was a no-brainer. Of course we did.The goodwill engendered far outweighed the miniscule risk.

 

[RogerS]

...
Always interesting to see the tradesmen huddle together after something like this comes out to slag off customers with bad customer stories as way of distracting from the fact...

Oh Jake..that's beneath you with that comment. Showing your true colours, maybe ?

 

[dzj]

Some customers would bleed you dry if they could.
Not all are like this though. When my car was damaged in a collision a few years ago,
two people I worked for earlier offered me their four-wheel drive and ute until my vehicle comes
back from the shop. Rather nice of them, I thought.
Getting back to the OP, if inferior materials were used, that's a con job.
He might get away with it once or twice, but sooner or later, lawyers come calling.

 

[doctor Bob]

I think as with life 99% of clients are great but you get the odd one which tries your patience.
As a company we know we're not perfect either so it's swings and roundabouts.
Important thing is to keep everyone as happy as possible.

 

[Doug71]

As far as I'm concerned if my clients get what they were expecting, made or built to an acceptable quality then regardless of price or any savings I've managed to make on purchasing materials it's all good.

As others have said a price is a price. No-one makes them accept it.

Recently I priced a job involving a whole load of drawers (MDF stuff, nothing fancy). I always use Blum Movento runners for my drawer boxes, and clearly say so on my quotes. I charge them to my clients at retail price and then enjoy the saving from my discount. My usual supplier was out of stock of the size I needed, and on searching around the web I found an alternative supplier who was dumping all of their Blum stock as they were no longer going to be stocking it.

I managed to get the runners for less than half of what I'd usually pay, amounting to saving of nearly £500.

Did the customer see any saving?

Not a chance.

Do I feel bad?

Nope.

I don't really feel that it needs any justification but anyone who does this as a job will know that whilst about 50% of your prices work out ok, 25% will hurt you and the other 25% will go better than expected. This is mainly the case when every job is a one off. I accept that if you're manufacturing and selling kitchens as some on here do, then that would be totally unacceptable as a business model, but for the guy who is making and hanging a door one day, a staircase the next followed by a couple of MDF alcove units the above scenario is more likely.

So back to my drawer job - Yes, I was chuffed to have made a good lump on top of my wage and overheads and small margin. But I know for sure that within the next few months or so most of that will have gone due to over-runs, unforseens and general nonsense.

I would have passed some of the discount on to the customer.

 

[Lons]

Always interesting to see the tradesmen huddle together after something like this comes out to slag off customers with bad customer stories as way of distracting from the fact another tradesman has clearly done something very dodgy which they presumably wouldn't have done themselves. Don't really get that, brings the whole business into disrepute. Bad apples contaminating the barrel etc.

I don't see any huddling together and it certainly wasn't my intention Jake as in my case the very vast majority of my customers were excellent ( apart from the add on jobs which are understandable if annoying #-o ).
I had very few who didn't pay on time or made life difficult, many were repeat customers prepared to wait until I could fit them in and a lot of them I still regard as friends even though I've been retired 3 years.

There are plenty of cowboys around an they give trades a bad name but just makes it easier to get customers when you have a good reputation.

 

[Jake]

...
Always interesting to see the tradesmen huddle together after something like this comes out to slag off customers with bad customer stories as way of distracting from the fact...

Oh Jake..that's beneath you with that comment. Showing your true colours, maybe ?

True colours as ever Roger, true colours.

So tell me how did bad customers become relevant to a thread about a rip-off tradesman?

Sure, a minority or perhaps more of customers will be difficult or worse. So are a minority of tradesman. So are a minority of lawyers (some might say more). But if this was a thread about a rip-off lawyer, I wouldn't suddenly bring up loads of irrelevant stories about difficult clients.

 

[Lons]

So tell me how did bad customers become relevant to a thread about a rip-off tradesman?

I think I probably started it Jake when I said there are dodgy customers as well as tradesmen but I can't see quite what your point is to be honest as you freely admit that and imo it's a perfectly reasonable, and relevant, fact to state.

Is there something else behind this as you seem to be getting your knickers in a twist? :? My appology in advance is I've misread that though.

 

[Jake]

No knickers in a twist at all, just seen it happen many times before in various places.

Apart from my posts, over the last couple of pages, you'd think this was a thread about some terrible customer. As it's the opposite, it just seems like some of weird tribal collective deflection, and its something I've seen happen many times. As I said, I don't get it, as few tradesman would've done what this guy is said to have done, and it just gives trades a bad name unnecessarily and undeservedly.

 

[thick_mike]

Question to the pros on here, how can you find a good tradesman? I have jobs that never get done around the house and I’d love to get someone in to do them, but I fear getting a wrong’un so they never get done.

Second question is what are the red flags when you are estimating for a job? Seems tradesman weigh up a customer and a job and either don’t quote, or quote very high if they don’t want the job. What makes you run to the hills?

 

[nabs]

also, what is the logic of estimating a very high quote for a job you would rather not do? is it just a polite refusal or a true reflection of the minimum you'd accept to do an unappealing job? Genuine question!

PS I think the happy outcome of trade work depends as much on good clients as it does on good tradesmen.

 

[Doug71]

Question to the pros on here, how can you find a good tradesman? I have jobs that never get done around the house and I’d love to get someone in to do them, but I fear getting a wrong’un so they never get done.

Second question is what are the red flags when you are estimating for a job? Seems tradesman weigh up a customer and a job and either don’t quote, or quote very high if they don’t want the job. What makes you run to the hills?

I think the best way to find a good tradesman is through recommendations from people you know and trust although this is not always guaranteed as peoples expectations can be different. If you find a good tradesman chances are he can recommend people in other trades who he has worked alongside in the past. I always feel sorry for people who have to just phone round to find someone, if they can start tomorrow you should probably avoid them!

You can tell if a customer is for you straight away by their house, tastes, attitude etc.

I don't do the big price thing if I don't want a job, I phone/email them a couple of days after looking at their job and say I have had a couple of big jobs come in and can't do anything for 2-3 months, that normally puts them off.

I have not come across many difficult customers, if you pick the right ones and do everything properly in a professional manner things generally run smoothly.

 

[Setch]

The quote high for jobs you don't want is a terrible idea - they always accept, and if you've an ounce of moral fibre, you then feel compelled to do a really good job to justify the ludicrous price.

It's then that you remember why you didn't want the job in the first place, and that you should have gone with your instincts and just said no.

 

[Lons]

No knickers in a twist at all, just seen it happen many times before in various places.

Apart from my posts, over the last couple of pages, you'd think this was a thread about some terrible customer. As it's the opposite, it just seems like some of weird tribal collective deflection, and its something I've seen happen many times. As I said, I don't get it, as few tradesman would've done what this guy is said to have done, and it just gives trades a bad name unnecessarily and undeservedly.

Not the way I read the thread Jake, there are a number of comments condeming the actions of the guy in the original post and bad traders in general.

Good and bad on both sides as you, me and most others have said so I don't understand your objection to discussing both sides of the issue, it is an open forum after all and just as in many other threads the subject expands, I certainly can't agree that it's not relevant!.
I repeat, I don't see it as "huddling together" and several of us have said we wouldn't do what that guy did.

Genuine honest tradesmen should never be afraid of cowboys giving a bad name, look after your own reputation and you benefit from that as word soon gets around that you're a person who delivers what he promises.

On the subject of pricing high because you don't want the job, again something I never did. If I didn't want or fancy doing it I would say so, better to be honest as most people appreciate that and come back in future perhaps with something I did want to do.

cheers
Bob