Where does fraud start?

[RogerS]

I know I struck gold. We moved up here in Feb 2017 and we knew that we had an awful lot of stuff to do. I asked the local farmer who he'd used as I was impressed with the quality of the work. He gave me the builder's name and also a young sparks.

Met the builder, gave him an idea of what we wanted to do, he suggested coming along to do a couple of rooms and see where we went from there. The quality of his work, our relationship was the best I've ever had. He arrived to start the day he said he would. He opened an account for me at one of the local builders merchants at his discount rates (I checked!). He'd ring me up on a Sunday to discuss and plan the week out. We got on like a house on fire. Still do.

Our sparky is now a mate.

 

[Jake]

At the same time it seems to me that a humble chippy has, in the eyes of some, to account for every penny (I mean, he doesn't even pronounce his t's so he's obviously a dishonest scum-bag). Wheras, say, a legal practitioner can just add zeros yet is a pillar of the community.

Can't speak for all lawyers, but all the firms I've ever worked at send invoices with disbursements (ie the equivalent for us of materials) at the cost charged to us, usually attaching the invoices of our suppliers to support those disbursement charges.

The zeros go on our hourly rates in a honest upfront manner set out transparently before starting to act so the client take, leave or negotiate them.

But most businesses don't work on hourly rates, so the honest way about it would be just to quote the overall cost without saying X for materials and Y for labour. That way if you win by saving on materials you haven't misled anyone.

 

[Dibs-h]

But most businesses don't work on hourly rates, so the honest way about it would be just to quote the overall cost without saying X for materials and Y for labour. That way if you win by saving on materials you haven't misled anyone.

It's the same with garages. I've never seen one that doesn't put a markup on the parts too. If they didn't, the "true" hourly rate might make some folk wince.

 

[topchippytom]

Price is a price as long as the job is done correct and the customer is happy.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

But he is using a material much inferior to what was quoted for, not that the customer necessarily knew.

 

[Dibs-h]

But he is using a material much inferior to what was quoted for, not that the customer necessarily knew.

That's not right in my book. That's comfortably on the slippery slope to fraud - quoting one thing and delivering something else, unbeknownst to the customer. Bit like quoting solid timber and delivering\supplying chipboard or some manmade material. (pros & cons of each aside).

If he hadn't actually specified the material so to speak - then it isn't so clear cut.

 

[Doug71]

I know one of the big kitchen companies who will invoice your customer directly so the customer thinks they are paying your trade price. Thing is the kitchen firm ask you how much you want them to invoice customer for and credit your account with the difference between what it actually cost and what the customer paid. I don't know how people can do it, obviously I'm no business man.

I generally add a bit to materials but not much.

I always give people an idea of what the job will cost and pretty much always stick to it.

Not as keen on working for an hourly rate anymore as feel I need to be working at 100mph all the time and getting too old for that!

 

[Trevanion]

The dodgy part of my brain has been wondering whether you could buy bare Radiata Pine for peanuts and pass it off as Accoya timber for doors and windows, paint it up so nobody will ever know and keep the massive extra material cost as profit. Even on the off chance somebody inspects the doors before they're painted most people won't notice the difference between actual Accoya and it's bare counterpart and will be just going off the look of the grain alone. You should get a couple of years out of the scam before anyone even noticed.

Of course, I would never ever do that.

Don't any of you get any ideas either! :roll:

 

[doctor Bob]

Like the fella who knocks on the door and says they are doing the mains gas outside and he can connect up your gas bypassing the meter for a grand.
Does it, shows you the meter not turning, punter pays up.

2 weeks later the gas goes out.
Turns out he has just hooked up a portable gas bottle and buried it. :lol:

 

[Dibs-h]

2 weeks later the gas goes out.
Turns out he has just hooked up a portable gas bottle and buried it. :lol:

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[RogerS]

But he is using a material much inferior to what was quoted for, not that the customer necessarily knew.

Are you saying that this is what happened in your OP ? If so then yes...not good. But if not then I'd say it was fine.

 

[Lons]

But he is using a material much inferior to what was quoted for, not that the customer necessarily knew.

You didn't say that in your initial post Phil, is that fact or an assumption as there are many instances where there are huge differences in price for identical materials.

If he has used inferior materials than he quoted then it's totally out of order.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

Yes. Sorry, I'll clarify that. The quote was for for first class oak, the customer was shown this and it was accepted. The job was done with oak fence posts with the hearts left in, and already splitting.
Rather more than immoral I'd think.

 

[RogerS]

Yes. Sorry, I'll clarify that. The quote was for for first class oak, the customer was shown this and it was accepted. The job was done with oak fence posts with the hearts left in, and already splitting.
Rather more than immoral I'd think.

Deffo out of order.

 

[Lons]

In that case Phil in my view it's fraudulent and if I was the customer I'd be taking action to get my money back.

EDIT:
Just to clarify that, I still maintain that the price is largely irrelevant as that's what the customer agreed to but by supplying different, inferior materials without re-negotiation and agreement he has cheated and as far as I'm concerned that's fraud.

Puts a very different aspect on your original post given the facts.

 

[marcros]

I am not defending it, but with no standardised and accepted grading system, one person's"first quality" is the next persons "thirds".

Again, not defending it but if the quote was for oak posts, it would be difficult for the customer to do much.

Where I think it gets a bit naughty is to show one quote, which presumably shows a full description of the goods, and knowingly buying something inferior elsewhere. We don't know the full story, but I wonder whether he bought them unseen online and himself got stung by getting what he paid for rather than what he expected.

 

[Lons]

Marcros is right of course, can you give a bit more detail of what the job actually was Phil?

 

[Zeddedhed]

As far as I'm concerned if my clients get what they were expecting, made or built to an acceptable quality then regardless of price or any savings I've managed to make on purchasing materials it's all good.

As others have said a price is a price. No-one makes them accept it.

Recently I priced a job involving a whole load of drawers (MDF stuff, nothing fancy). I always use Blum Movento runners for my drawer boxes, and clearly say so on my quotes. I charge them to my clients at retail price and then enjoy the saving from my discount. My usual supplier was out of stock of the size I needed, and on searching around the web I found an alternative supplier who was dumping all of their Blum stock as they were no longer going to be stocking it.

I managed to get the runners for less than half of what I'd usually pay, amounting to saving of nearly £500.

Did the customer see any saving?

Not a chance.

Do I feel bad?

Nope.

I don't really feel that it needs any justification but anyone who does this as a job will know that whilst about 50% of your prices work out ok, 25% will hurt you and the other 25% will go better than expected. This is mainly the case when every job is a one off. I accept that if you're manufacturing and selling kitchens as some on here do, then that would be totally unacceptable as a business model, but for the guy who is making and hanging a door one day, a staircase the next followed by a couple of MDF alcove units the above scenario is more likely.

So back to my drawer job - Yes, I was chuffed to have made a good lump on top of my wage and overheads and small margin. But I know for sure that within the next few months or so most of that will have gone due to over-runs, unforseens and general nonsense.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

... I wonder whether he bought them unseen online and himself got stung by getting what he paid for rather than what he expected.

He did exactly that.
Bob - the job was handrails down the side of a waterside property to the water. I probably wouldn't have used oak, but the woman wanted it to match other woodwork.

 

[Lons]

Bob - the job was handrails down the side of a waterside property to the water. I probably wouldn't have used oak, but the woman wanted it to match other woodwork.

I could never have done that! I understand that he took a chance and it backfired but at very least he should have come clean and come to an agreement with his customer. What he has done now is sow the seeds of mistrust and that word will spread and cost him future work.

What Zeddedhead said is right as well and in my case customer add on jobs was my worst nightmare. There were very few jobs that worked out as planned and you could see a customers mind working overtime as the work progressed so when you got there in the morning the dreaded words " I've been thinking" were not what I wanted to hear. One customer would stick post it notes on the wall before leaving for work and I dreaded opening the door as I never knew what to expect. Very few of them appreciated that those "little" while I've got you here jobs mount up and cost time and money.