When did the world go mad for Festool?

[MMUK]

Bring friends :lol:

There's some on here who don't have them lol

 

[Adam9453]

Clean up time is also an important factor and with festool tools the extraction is typically 30% better than the competition.
.

I will beg to differ on that point, granted as you say it's in your opinion.
The finest dust extractor I've ever seen and had a go of is the Rupes, I forget it's model number but it's the model around £700-800.
The rep said it creates a dustless working environment and he was right.
Closely followed by the Mirka system.
My BIL owns a bodyshop and we've had on test most of the offerings, including the Festool. It's good but there are better.
I've borrowed most of them to try at home and even on my DeWalt circular saw and 621 router the Rupes and Mirka were absolutely faultless.
Again though, IMHO.

Ah I clearly didn't explain what I meant properly. I wasn't referring to festools extractors being 30% better than other makes of extractor. I was actually referring to the extracting efficiency of the actual power tools. For example the Kapex SCMS is designed such that its dust extraction is much more efficient than the equivalent top end Dewalt SCMS (IIRC 95% dust extracted versus 65% dust extracted when connected to the same dust extractor). The dust extraction on the track saw being another good example.
Extraction is particularly important when working in someones finished house building some built in furniture as people tend to be very unimpressed when you fill their house with MDF dust and say "its ok i'm much cheaper because I don't have festool tools"

Like my mentor told me when I was an apprentice,
"If you use it every day, buy the best there is or you can afford"
"If you use it once a week, buy a good one"
"If it comes out once a month, get something that will get the job done"
"If you never need it more than once, borrow it"

I completely agree with this 8)

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

..and then there's the three F's...

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Some years ago, maybe 10 definitely more than 7 as my daughter wasn't born, I was building some stud walls in an art centre. The only tools I had brought were a cordless and a chopsaw. There was a guy there doing the skirt and hanging doors. I'd watched with interest as he used what looked to me like a cheap plasticy saw on some rails to trim doors. Anyway, the plasterer, a lovely old fella and a great plasterer, but physically not great, was sawing up some 18mm ply with a blunt hardpoint saw to mix some plaster on, panting and sweating. I stopped him and asked the carpenter if I could use his circular saw to cut some boards for Pat the plasterer. I know it's kind of against the rules to ask to borrow but we had all been getting on and it wasn't for me but for Pat. "You can borrow it" the carpenter said "but it's going to cost you". "It's not for me it's to help Pat" I objected "anyway we'll get you a beer". "NO, no, no" said the carpenter "it's not me who your going to have to pay, it's the Germans." "what you on about?" I asked. "just use the saw" he replied.
I did one cut across a piece of ply and went "Sh?t, how much do these things cost?. What £400, no chance. £250 for the extractor well I don't need that"
Within the week I bought the saw without the extractor, used it, went back and bought the extractor. 2 marks on a piece of ply, a perfect cut and no dust. Anyone who says it's n different to a circular saw judges things very differently to me.
I've used that saw most days since then. I've dropped it off ladders, twice it's been in the river and it still cuts as good as the first day. For me it's got nothing to do with kudos, I just want things to work. When a tool breaks it can cost me hundreds of pounds in lost income (as can reading this forum in my tea break). The dry dock where I work is quite "random" and the tools have a hard life. In my shed at home where I mess about with furniture and instruments I don't need a festool drill, makita or Milwaukee do fine, but at work I need the least likely to break tool, with the best service guarantee.
I can see why fine furniture makers may not see the need for festool, with their organised workshops, but hanging over the side of a boat they are worth every penny.
One day I will sell my boats and retire from here (I have no intention of waiting till I'm 60) and just make things in my shed using home made bow saws and wooden planes dressed up like some medieval journey man (well maybe not, but you know what I mean), of all the powered tools the festool saw will be the hardest to see go. Hopefully I will never try the domino!!!!

 

[Random Orbital Bob]

Good post that...I'm bloody nearly convinced now...will you all stop it now...it'll cost me a fortune!

I have the domino by the way and it is bordering on art it's such a joy to use But Jeeez I winced when I paid for it though as it was only just released at the time and I didn't get much change from a grand with the domino assortment systainer.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Festool for pros = money makers.
Festool for diyers/hobbyist/gentleman woodworkers = praying the tool will make up for lack of skill.
:lol:

Gentleman woodworker, gentleman woodworker. Gentleman woodworker.

Yep when I do sell my boats and leave the dock that is what i want to be "Hi, I'm Paddy, I'm a gentleman woodworker". I'll have to get rid of the cockney accent and I suppose I'll have to have straight handled saws. "Goodgrief man, I don't do shotblasting, I'm a gentleman woodworker"

 

[powertools]

My take on this is that most advocates of expensive tools seem to be business users and what hasn't been taken into account is that a £600 tool after claiming back the VAT and the offset against tax costs them about £350 so they have not really bothered to look for a cheaper alternative. For the home user the true cost of a £600 tool paid for with after tax income is more like £750 so there will be a big difference of opinion.

 

[Adam9453]

Bargains can be found, my domino df500 with domino assortment off ebay set me back £350. I just had to buy a new plug it cable for £20 as the guy couldn't find it.
Fantastic value at that price

 

[MMUK]

My take on this is that most advocates of expensive tools seem to be business users and what hasn't been taken into account is that a £600 tool after claiming back the VAT and the offset against tax costs them about £350 so they have not really bothered to look for a cheaper alternative. For the home user the true cost of a £600 tool paid for with after tax income is more like £750 so there will be a big difference of opinion.

I don't know where you worked that out but your figures are misleading. Do you know how VAT works?

It makes me laugh when people think they're getting 20% back off any costs. Even people who have been in business for years still think this!

All you get is tax relief on that 20% so instead of paying £120 VAT on a £600 item you're paying around £96 assuming a tax rate of 20%.

That's just a simplified view, obviously it gets more complicated as you start offsetting against your own invoices and gross income.

 

[Rhossydd]

I don't know where you worked that out but your figures are misleading. Do you know how VAT works?
It makes me laugh when people think they're getting 20% back off any costs. Even people who have been in business for years still think this!
All you get is tax relief on that 20% so instead of paying £120 VAT on a £600 item you're paying around £96 assuming a tax rate of 20%.

I don't think you do from those figures.
If you're VAT registered and use normal VAT accounting, as opposed to being on the flat rate scheme. You would reclaim the VAT back on any purchases made for business purposes. So you could reclaim £100 if your tool retailed at £600 (£500+vat). You would further offset the cost of the tool, excluding VAT, as a business expense reducing the business's profit and hence their tax liability. That makes the effective cost even lower, depending on the rate of tax the business pays, sole trader/partnership/Ltd Co.

 

[Paddy Roxburgh]

Yep, the full VAT paid on anything purchased for the business is refunded, in return you have to charge 20% VAT on all bills and pay that.

 

[Doug B]

I don't know where you worked that out but your figures are misleading. Do you know how VAT works?

It makes me laugh when people think they're getting 20% back off any costs. Even people who have been in business for years still think this!

All you get is tax relief on that 20% so instead of paying £120 VAT on a £600 item you're paying around £96 assuming a tax rate of 20%.

That's just a simplified view, obviously it gets more complicated as you start offsetting against your own invoices and gross income.

Well that explains a great deal.

 

[MMUK]

That was just a rough example I'm not saying my figures are 100% correct. However they are a damned sight closer than the poster who claimed a £600 tool would only cost a business user £350!

 

[Bodgers]

Cost aside, the business benefit is there; if I was in the trade and wanted to do the job as hassle free as possible, with as little mess as possible, I would be reaching for the Festool gear including matching hat and t-shirt. It would pay for itself eventually.

Instead, being a weekend warrior, I wrestle with making sure my cheap Duo Dowelling machine is accurate for each cut, rather than brandishing a very slick Domino.

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[Random Orbital Bob]

In fairness the domino isn't infallible...you still need to be careful when you're doing the setup and you need to avoid lifting etc when doing the plunge...it has it's little tips and tricks like everything else. But I know what you mean and I will say that purely from a speed perspective it's revolutionised the time it takes for m&t joinery compared to the old days of my hollow mortise. Trouble is there are still occasions when you want a square mortise so having both would be nice.

The domino has definitely de-skilled this joinery technique though, in a big way, frankly, after a bit of getting used to it, it's absolute childs play.

 

[MMUK]

The domino has definitely de-skilled this joinery technique though, in a big way, frankly, after a bit of getting used to it, it's absolute childs play.

Unfortunately in this respect Festool don't help the situation. So many people I know would become unemployable over night if you took away their power tools. No disrespect meant to any of them, they do a great job, but they are completely reliant on Festool this or Mafel that, they wouldn't have a clue how to do the job by hand.

I'm not saying I don't use power tools or that I don't rely on them for certain parts of my job, I do because it's quicker and easier. What I am saying is that I could get along and do the job with only hand tools if I had no choice, whereas there are many who couldn't.

It's a real shame that the true art of joinery is fast becoming extinct.

 

[RogerP]

It's only meant for quick blind mortice an tenon joints in carcase construction. No use for the many other forms of MT so chisel, chain and hand cut joints are still needed in other types of work.

 

[Doug B]

Any tool is only as useful as the the bloke using it, this is a wedged through mortice & tenon cut with a domino the splay in the mortise simply cut with a chisel.

Since getting the XL my bench morticer became so redundant I put it in storage to free up workshop space.

 

[RobinBHM]

I dont have any Festools, I feel like Im missing out

Im going to save up for some, then I can a member of FOG!

Ive looked at the festool products, but in the context of a joinery shop, there isnt a great need for them, although I am considering a track saw as that would be useful when work in the assembly shop which is some distance from the panel saw.

For site work, or smaller workshops I can see festool being very useful. Chippies can now build carcsasses quickly and accurately on site, almost certainly taking on jobs that may have avoided in the past.

Festool are innovators taking hand power tools to the next level. Competitors are now bringing copies to the marketplace at lower price points so products like the track saw are available to a wide audience.

Festool have cleverly created a brand, which is at a higher price point to the rest of the market. A high price point in itself makes the product more desirable. If Festool lowered its prices it would lose its exclusive image at the top of the market. It will be interesting to see if the other market players catch up



FOG: http://festoolownersgroup.com

 

[Bodgers]

It's only meant for quick blind mortice an tenon joints in carcase construction. No use for the many other forms of MT so chisel, chain and hand cut joints are still needed in other types of work.

The larger domino (700?) seems if it can tackle almost anything. I read an article somewhere of someone doing an oak framed conservatory with one.



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