Wago Lighting Connectors

[Spectric]

The problem with switch mode power supplies is they can induce a larger current into the CPC due to the filtering capacitors and will cause issues with residual current protective devices and nuisance tripping. Under the 18th regs look up BS7671 Reg 531.33.2 which essentially states that the maximum earth leakage on each RCD must not exceed 30% of the nominal value, so your 30mA RCD's must not have more than 9mA. To achieve this might require additional RCBO's to spread the leakage so more cost to the consumer and more expense with equipment for the electrician.

 

[somean49]

Think of a two RCD consumer unit, five circuits on each RCD with the circuits spread across the two RCD's. A fault occurs in let's say an external light and trips the RCD, now you lose all those circuits on that RCD which might include a fridge or freezer or your heating system and you can imagine the potential consequences. With RCBO's you will only ever lose that one particular circuit, a fault in one has no impact on any of the others.



I have seen plastic junction boxes and such that have deformed / discoloured through heat but not any that have actually resulted in combustion. Modern plastics are fine in domestic enviroments, metal was used in industrial due to supposedly better protection from impact but again Pvc conduit can take a lot of impact and polycarbonate is great when you want something that cannot be easily smashed with a hammer. This latest change to using metal consumer units with sealed cable entry does seem OTT, especially now we no longer used the old wired fuses and have residual current protection and going back even further the fuse boxes were wooden.

I believe the requirement for metal clad consumer units/fuseboxes was driven by the concerns of the fire and rescue services: in fires the plastic enclosures could melt causing live conductors to fall into the pooled water pumped into the burning building. This had consequences for the safety of fire fighters and other emergency service personnel.

 

[Spectric]

was driven by the concerns of the fire and rescue services: in fires the plastic enclosures could melt causing live conductors to fall into the pooled water pumped into the burning building.

I think that is a very feable excuse from someone, I fully understood the need for wiring in commercial premises to be supported in such a way that it did not hang down when a ceiling came down and this to an extent can apply to domestic but a fuseboard melting to the point a conductor remains live and hangs into a pool of water, I have seen boards burnt in house fires but they become a charred mass with everything glooped together.

 

[deema]

Have a look at the box the main fuses and meter sit in……as are all new ones…….plastic!! It’s a F****ing joke. So, the consumer unit has to be metal , but the infeed goes through two boxes that are…..plastic.
This is a classic example of how regs are corrupted and what frustrated the hell out of me when I sat on them.

 

[Spectric]

I think if they were really serious about safety in a domestic enviroment then there would have been a lot more precise advice and less ambiguity in the regulations which in itself is misleading as they are guidance. They are concerned about the plastic CU but what about the fumes from Pvc cable and they still allow ring mains sixty years after the copper shortage that introduced them. I think in domestic it all comes down to cost and not upsetting property developers who have already got round using electricians for cheaper domestic installers.

 

[HOJ]

I'm having a battle with an EICR done on a property where the "electrician" has raised a C2 for not having an RCD on the lighting circuits, 20 year old property, at worst its a C3 even then its still not necessary to assign a condition at all, he gave a nice price to "fix it" as well...

Not having an issue with the fact there is or isn't RCD's its the principal of trying to con someone (90 year old) to generate business, when it is done in a way that terrifies them.

 

[deema]

@HOJ report him, the body is toothless, ie won’t revoke or even investigate his competence, but, you can get an opinion, which you can then use for either social media review of his practices, or to defend why you don’t need to do it.
I had an idiot do an electrical safety check who decided all the down lighters needed replacing……for around £3K. He insisted he was right about his interpretation of the regs, but I was one of those who had created a guidance note on the subject. Let’s put it this way I ensured I did as much damage to his business as possible. Rip off merchants need to be shut down.

 

[Valhalla]

domestic installers.

What's one of them then? During my time on the tools (in a very very different life) I worked on all manner of electrical systems - refrigeration, fire alarms, medical facilities, nurse-call systems and BMS (to name a few) and we had a comprehensive understanding of all these sytems. Imagine my total disbelief when I found out I couldn't rewire my own house unless I has some part P cert. If I did it blind-folded I would still turn out a better job than a lot of the monkeys out there with all those pseudo qualifications. I gave up my JIB card years ago....not worth the plastic they're printed on.

 

[Spectric]

What's one of them then?

A domestic installer is NOT a qualified electrical engineer but someone who does wiring in domestic properties ONLY, they do not need any qualifications but must be a member of a competant persons scheme and have insurance. Gone are the days of a qualified electrician wiring houses, the property developers wanted to cut cost and maximise profits for the shareholders and so they can buy bigger yachts so along came a domestic installer, just de-skilling to max out returns and is why new builds are often just badly built sheds. Having seen some of their work I would not let them change a light bulb, I believe that a good underlying understanding of a subject allows much better judgement and decision making, plus you can see when something is wrong much easier.

https://electricalqualifications.com/domestic-installer/

 

[Spectric]

I'm having a battle with an EICR done on a property where the "electrician" has raised a C2 for not having an RCD on the lighting circuits,

The current regulations state that all circuits must be protected by a residual current device, including lighting but unless it is a rental property then the current regulations do not need to be retrofitted to older installations. If inspecting a property to issue an EICR which is for rental then you need to ensure safety and it would not be unreasonable to request residual current protection on all circuits simply to provide that level of protection, peace of mind for landlord and no comebacks on the person signingthe EICR.

 

[Valhalla]

must be a member of a competant persons scheme

So by definition - having a JIB gold card makes someone a member of a competent persons scheme??

 

[MikeJhn]

A domestic installer is NOT a qualified electrical engineer but someone who does wiring in domestic properties ONLY, they do not need any qualifications but must be a member of a competant persons scheme and have insurance.

https://electricalqualifications.com/domestic-installer/

Not trying to start an argument, but where does it say in any legislation that someone offering themselves as an domestic electrician MUST be a member of a competent persons scheme, that link you posted is a sponsored link from a training organisation, so a vested interest.

 

[HOJ]

@Spectric Its an owner occupied property up for sale, purchaser had the EICR done, now wants to re negotiate price, oh and they had a drain survey done, guess what, apparently they need fixing & that will be £xxx.xx + extras etc, had an independent survey done, nothing wrong with them..

 

[deema]

EICR reports are like printing money for a lot of people. It’s not often they come across anyone who either knows the regs or is interested enough to look up and interpret what they say. So, it’s wide open for corruption as there is absolutely no regulation. It was an absolute backward step IMO it’s introduction.

 

[Spectric]

Its an owner occupied property up for sale, purchaser had the EICR done, now wants to re negotiate price,

They are just looking for any excuse to knock the price, if the electrical installation is safe even if not meeting current regs then the EICR should be issued, it may just note / advise that it might be prudent to provide RCD protection for the lighting circuit but if they want an all singing 18th edition consumer unit with RCBO's then that is something they can undertake once they own the property.

 

[Spectric]

but where does it say in any legislation that someone offering themselves as an domestic electrician MUST be a member of a competent persons scheme,

This competant persons scheme is government pushed and is both de-skilling and trying to meet shortages in labour. It applies to not only domestic installers but other building trades.

Have a read of Competent person scheme - current schemes and how schemes are authorised

 

[deema]

They are just looking for any excuse to knock the price, if the electrical installation is safe even if not meeting current regs then the EICR should be issued, it may just note / advise that it might be prudent to provide RCD protection for the lighting circuit but if they want an all singing 18th edition consumer unit with RCBO's then that is something they can undertake once they own the property.

Yes and no. Virtually nobody knows the regs apart from those involved with them, and most of them debate what they actually require!. So the poor purchaser has an EICR done to see how much of a cowboy / cowgirl / cow person has had their paws over the job……which tells you very little in reality……and then understandably asks the owner to either put right or discount the property to the tune of what ever the report requires and recommendations suggestEd.
Sparky has a vested interest in finding / inventing anything, as they are highly likely to be asked to be asked to do the job by either the vendor or the purchaser.
Now, both parties are caught, there is no independant body they can appeal to, so they end up finding a solution or walking away. We have regulation in the UK without any form of policing of the system which leads to complete corruption and shoddy work to boot.

 

[MikeJhn]

This competant persons scheme is government pushed and is both de-skilling and trying to meet shortages in labour. It applies to not only domestic installers but other building trades.

Have a read of Competent person scheme - current schemes and how schemes are authorised

Interesting link, but no where does it say that to work as a domestic electrician you MUST be a member of the register: Home

 

[Spectric]

If you are not an electrician and not on a competant persons scheme then all your work would have to be inspected at your cost which I believe would be prohibitive, so the competant persons schemes are forced upon you. There are a lot of electricians that are time served and fully qualified that look at the domestic installer as just DIY'ers because they do lack that understanding you gain through academia.

 

[Spectric]

So the poor purchaser has an EICR done to see how much of a cowboy / cowgirl / cow person has had their paws over the job……which tells you very little in reality……and then understandably asks the owner to either put right or discount the property to the tune of what ever the report requires and recommendations suggestEd.

The best thing to do in these circumstances is just to stand by the price and tell the potential buyer to either buy it or find something else, you don't want to go down that route otherwise they will find all sorts of issues in trying to get the price down. Another idea would be to get a second opinion from maybe a more experienced electrician who can apply some common sense and understands that there are a huge number of properties that don't comply with the latest regs and that does not mean the property is not electrically safe.