Phil Pascoe
Established Member
Not the best comparison, maybe, as parts of the H.C. are advisory.
Wago Lighting Connectors
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HOJ
Established Member
This could be dangerous, but part of a subject I'm currently working on so seemed relevant to post, however I'm of the mind electrical subjects should be treated the same as sharpening and political threads.
Lifted from the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989
British Standard BS 7671 Requirements for Electrical
Installations (also known as the IET Wiring Regulations)
BS 7671 Requirements for electrical installations is also known as the IET
Wiring Regulations. They are non-statutory regulations which ‘relate principally to
the design, selection, erection, inspection and testing of electrical installations,
whether permanent or temporary, in and about buildings generally and to
agricultural and horticultural premises, construction sites and caravans and their
sites’.
BS 7671 is a code of practice which is widely recognised and accepted in the
UK and compliance with it is likely to achieve compliance with relevant aspects of
the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989.
Suitability of connections
Guidance note 10
#160 The regulation requires that all connections in circuit and protective
conductors, including connections to terminals, plugs and sockets, and any other
means of joining or connecting conductors, should be suitable for the purposes for
which they are used. This requirement applies equally to temporary and permanent
connections. The insulation and conductance of the connections must be suitable,
having regard to the conditions of use including likely fault conditions.
#161 The mechanical protection and strength must be such as to ensure the
integrity of the insulation and conductance under all conditions of use including
likely fault conditions, subject to the need for any maintenance which may be
required by regulation 4(2).
Regulation 4(2)
#66 Regulation 4(2) is concerned with the need for maintenance to be done to
ensure safety of the system, rather than with the activity of doing the maintenance
in a safe manner (which is required by regulation 4(3)).
#67 The obligation to maintain arises only if danger would otherwise result. The
maintenance should be sufficient to prevent danger so far as is reasonably
practicable.
As always open todebate interpretation.
Lifted from the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989
British Standard BS 7671 Requirements for Electrical
Installations (also known as the IET Wiring Regulations)
BS 7671 Requirements for electrical installations is also known as the IET
Wiring Regulations. They are non-statutory regulations which ‘relate principally to
the design, selection, erection, inspection and testing of electrical installations,
whether permanent or temporary, in and about buildings generally and to
agricultural and horticultural premises, construction sites and caravans and their
sites’.
BS 7671 is a code of practice which is widely recognised and accepted in the
UK and compliance with it is likely to achieve compliance with relevant aspects of
the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989.
Suitability of connections
Guidance note 10
#160 The regulation requires that all connections in circuit and protective
conductors, including connections to terminals, plugs and sockets, and any other
means of joining or connecting conductors, should be suitable for the purposes for
which they are used. This requirement applies equally to temporary and permanent
connections. The insulation and conductance of the connections must be suitable,
having regard to the conditions of use including likely fault conditions.
#161 The mechanical protection and strength must be such as to ensure the
integrity of the insulation and conductance under all conditions of use including
likely fault conditions, subject to the need for any maintenance which may be
required by regulation 4(2).
Regulation 4(2)
#66 Regulation 4(2) is concerned with the need for maintenance to be done to
ensure safety of the system, rather than with the activity of doing the maintenance
in a safe manner (which is required by regulation 4(3)).
#67 The obligation to maintain arises only if danger would otherwise result. The
maintenance should be sufficient to prevent danger so far as is reasonably
practicable.
As always open to
I'm in the middle of totally refurbishing an old kitchen and hall into an open plan dining room. This work involved removing the internal wall and ripping out the old ceiling, ready for rewiring and new pipework. I found a lot of dead wires and even a few unterminated live wires. I'm currently wiring the new lighting circuit so I'll share one scary example of what I found:
The new 2 way lighting circuit will use 3 core and earth between the two switches, a wago box (screwed to a joist) and 224 connectors to wire in the feed wire and switched live wire. I use wago connectors on most wiring projects now.
The new 2 way lighting circuit will use 3 core and earth between the two switches, a wago box (screwed to a joist) and 224 connectors to wire in the feed wire and switched live wire. I use wago connectors on most wiring projects now.
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Not irrelevant in any circumstances, there are no Electrical Regulations that are law, you can quote BS's till the cows come home, but they are not regulations, the IET are a self appointed body that call their documents the "IET Regulations", but they are not statutory and are therefore not a legal regulation, British Standards are advisory and if it can be demonstrated that any work has been carried out in line with the advice or indeed exceeded that advice then the spirit of the advice has been complied with and any legal requirement has been met.
I think the point here is more that the electrical regs are mandated by building control who can force you to comply. Our sparks came to look at our CU the other day as it needs to be moved, its a modern plastic split CU with 2 RCD breakers and mcbs. He recommended we replace it with a metal one with rcbos to meet the latest 18th edition regs and also a big plus (together with full certification) when we eventually sell the place; the labour cost will be the same.
But the electrical regulations, BS7671 are not a legally binding document, they are best practice and for guidance as to how you design, inspect and test an installation. There is nothing in law that states you must follow this guidance but if you injure or electrocute someone then the first question asked will be, did you follow BS7671 and if not then you had better have a very sound explanation or you will be prosecuted.
An electrical installation only has to have met the regulations at the time of the installation, you do not have to bring older installations upto the current regulations but must certify that installation is safe.
As for bonding, a lot has changed since the mandatory use of residual current protection, once upon a time we would have to bond radiators in bathrooms.
Regulation 701.415.2 states supplementary bonding may be omitted, provided that all final circuits of the location have additional protection by means of an RCD in accordance with 701.411.3.3.
That is more a case of doing the right thing, you are replacing the CU as part of moving it but had this just been a test and inspection then you could advise the customer that having a newer board with RCBO's would meet newer regs but no way could you make them change it.
Agreed and he said as such; it is our choice.
I always looked upon them as a double edged sword, you don't need to follow them but if something goes wrong then the HSE will use them to prosecute you. There are cases where you just cannot fully follow BS7671, you might have to make a slight change but so long as your change is safe beyond doubt and you can justify it then not an issue.
I’ve sat on a few committees that have set the regulations, it never ceased to amaze me how regulations were changed to meet the needs of additional profits and business for the company’s that sat on the very same committees.
Now its a long time ago I was involved with the IET or IEEE as it was then, but I believe that electrical boxes had to be made from V0 plastic, that’s virgin material that has a specific fire retardancy. Lighting and other stuff was required to be on split circuits to avoid the ‘lights going out due to a single fault’. You would have a very hard time trying to ignite V0 material, so I don’t buy into metal boxes to resolve the perceived fire risk of the box. They used to be metal before plastic took over!!!! Plastic was seen as presenting a lower chance of electrocution.!!!
A RCBO is simply a MCB and RCD in one unit, far more expensive than MCB’s covered by a single RCD. I can’t think of a single reason why the RCBO is a better solution. The minor inconveniences of a few more circuits being deactivated due to an earth fault on one isn’t I would suggest a big issue. In the good old days, people kept candles and the torches at conveniently places in case the lights went out. After all, power cuts do occur, where I live at least a biannual event.
Now its a long time ago I was involved with the IET or IEEE as it was then, but I believe that electrical boxes had to be made from V0 plastic, that’s virgin material that has a specific fire retardancy. Lighting and other stuff was required to be on split circuits to avoid the ‘lights going out due to a single fault’. You would have a very hard time trying to ignite V0 material, so I don’t buy into metal boxes to resolve the perceived fire risk of the box. They used to be metal before plastic took over!!!! Plastic was seen as presenting a lower chance of electrocution.!!!
A RCBO is simply a MCB and RCD in one unit, far more expensive than MCB’s covered by a single RCD. I can’t think of a single reason why the RCBO is a better solution. The minor inconveniences of a few more circuits being deactivated due to an earth fault on one isn’t I would suggest a big issue. In the good old days, people kept candles and the torches at conveniently places in case the lights went out. After all, power cuts do occur, where I live at least a biannual event.
I believe Wago connectors have a maximum specified resistance of 20m Ohm, or 0.2 Ohm. Doesn’t sound much but if you use them say in a 32A line that’s a power dissipation of circa 200 watts…..more than a few A+ rated light bulbs…….so you don’t want to use many.
porker
Established Member
You might want to check you calcs. 20mOhms is 0.02 Ohms, so a max of 20W. I note that the 221's are rated at 32A @ 400v. Not sure how the contact resistance measures up to traditional junction boxes but I assume the constant spring pressure in the Wago connector maintains the connection potentially better than a screw which can loosen over a long time of thermal cycling
Bother! My maths is now failing, thank you.
Valhalla
Established Member
You will at least know immediately which circuit has a fault condition - but is that worth the additional cost of installing rcbos .....probably not
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
My father many moons ago was a builder. He was advised by a planning committee that his men should no longer cut roofs, he should use fink trusses. Some while later he discovered that a councillor on the committee owned the only local firm making the trusses.
NormanB
Established Member
I have seen that and worse in ‘new builds’ - much of the U.K. housing stock is probably of a similar lash up.
Phil Pascoe
Established Member
Yeah, at least his junction boxes had the covers on them.
NormanB
Established Member
And what is the specified resistance of a choc block?
Think of a two RCD consumer unit, five circuits on each RCD with the circuits spread across the two RCD's. A fault occurs in let's say an external light and trips the RCD, now you lose all those circuits on that RCD which might include a fridge or freezer or your heating system and you can imagine the potential consequences. With RCBO's you will only ever lose that one particular circuit, a fault in one has no impact on any of the others.
I have seen plastic junction boxes and such that have deformed / discoloured through heat but not any that have actually resulted in combustion. Modern plastics are fine in domestic enviroments, metal was used in industrial due to supposedly better protection from impact but again Pvc conduit can take a lot of impact and polycarbonate is great when you want something that cannot be easily smashed with a hammer. This latest change to using metal consumer units with sealed cable entry does seem OTT, especially now we no longer used the old wired fuses and have residual current protection and going back even further the fuse boxes were wooden.
John Brown
Freeloading Social media influenza
Off on a tangent here, but I seem to remember a recent John Ward YouTube, in which he explained how most current (in the non-electrical sense) RCDs(so RCBOs as well) are fairly useless, with the proliferation of switch mode power supplies and inverter drive appliances?
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