Victor Socket Chisels or Kirschen 1101 Bevel Edge Chisels?

[Mirboo]

Nice saws Mike.

Mike, on your website I note that you offer panel saws both with and without a tapered blade. Do you think there is much advantage to a tapered blade? Given that the "set" on the saw cuts a kerf that is wider than the blade, is the taper really not necessary? I'd be interested in the opinion of one who knows a lot more about saws than I.

 

[Frank D.]

You should all really try some of this, it's called tamari sauce:

It's organic, made slowly, by master craftsmen, in these wooden vats:

Kind of like these:

:lol: (running and ducking)

 

[MikeW]

Hi Ian--thank you for the kind words.

Hmm. Been around the subject of taper with some which have, uh, strong feelings. Hopefully he must not be named isn't lurking :lol:

I think, no, I believe that the shorter the saw, the less taper plays a part. I chalk that up more to the mechanics of sawing than the physics of taper.

Some is good, though. Even if it is what we do typically, which is to simply relieve some thickness along the back and near the toe. A proper double taper on a larger saw, though, allows for less set.

On most of the woods I saw it makes little very little difference. On hard woods like Oak and Ash and many really soft woods such as Pine and Fir, open-grained woods, the fibers tear as much as slice. These whiskers in the kerf can get "grabby." So taper does help.

But proper set can go a long way towards relieving the need for a really heavy taper grind. I figure 2-3 thousandths more set on a saw without taper is all that is needed to offer relief in those grabby woods.

On topic content: I used 3 different chisels today. Two tanged paring chisels and one 1/2" Greenlee socket chisel :wink:

Take care, Mike

 

[Alf]

Look here, chaps, I like talking saws as much as the next person, but I was hoping for a few more opinions on what you want in a chisel here. :roll: Oh well, it's no wonder manufacturers don't bother if the potential consumer doesn't. [-(

Jacob, Acorn was J A Chapman's brand, subsequently the second quality line when Stanley bought up Chapman to become Stanley GB. On which basis it's probably a reasonable guess that pre-Stanley Acorn quality might be better than post, so buyer beware. Faithful, I dunno know. I think someone said they're being made in China now and the quality's plummeted in consequence, but I've not played with one to really comment. Might just as well get a Groz or an Anant; just as much pot luck as to whether it'll be a good one or not.

Which may be a point worth mentioning. Yes, you can get lucky and get good examples of cheap planes, but some folks like to pay more to tip the balance the other way into "you may be unlucky and get the odd bad one but the manufacturer will replace it asap and apologise profusely". So it's reasonable to argue that some of that cost is in fact going into insurance. Insurance that'll you'll actually get a workable tool and the service to back it up.

Cheers, Alf

Edited to add; Frank, those chisels don't look very organic to me... :-k :wink:

 

[MikeW]

Your list pretty much has it, Alf. [I did mention that in my post. Honestly.]

For myself, I just don't want A2. Laminated blades would be a good thing. Leaves little of the really hard steel which makes sharpening easier than it could otherwise be.

I think as I prefer western-style chisels, with the other attributes a "given" it really boils down whether they are tanged or socketed, forged or cast.

As for that, tanged is a preference simply for handle options, and as I haven't tried any Barr chisels, I have no idea whether that is an issue to me.

Take care, Mike
who at least ventured off-topic with a tool

 

[Anonymous]

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[Shady]

Funnily enough, while wandering around Axminster's summer sale site, look what I've just found at around £18:

At £3 each, that's where I'd start - anyone played with these, and can comment on them?

(Edit - and they fit my chisel requirements - cheap, abuse proof handles) Only question is the quality of the steel...

 

[Alf]

Gosh, look at that - actual honesty in calling them firmers! Oh, except Axminster calls them bevel-edged... #-o But hey, they might be a total bargain.

Cheers, Alf

 

[woodbloke]

AHOY! Broadside salvo of grape shot coming........

Mr C's been reading his Hornblower, as I am again, for the umpteenth time. Do agree with his comments on Kingshott tho' apart from his preference to use waterstones.... tho' this has been amply covered on a previous post a little while ago - Rob

 

[Mirboo]

Shady,

Your chisels look similar to these Stanley ones.

This set retails for AUS$115 over here (about 45 quid). Could they perhaps be from the same factory. :-k

 

[Paul Chapman]

While most of my (Marples) chisels have plastic handles and I'm quite happy with them, some manufacturers are now starting to use that soft, spongy, shock-absorbing plastic which I think is horrible. It tends to wear badly and dirt and sawdust sticks to it, making it very uncomfortable to use

Paul

 

[Frank D.]

I don't think making a list of what we find desirable gets us any further toward a consensus. Of course we all want an edge that lasts...and even that can mean different things for different people. I was quite happy with my chisels until I started working very hard and abrasive woods. Once I had some mortises to do in some bubinga, and only two of my 11 or so chisels lasted more than a few bangs (the edges would just crumble or roll over). My definition of a tough edge changed quite a bit. I finally ended up making my own chisels, but that hasn't stopped me from trying out others, like japanese chisels that I'm really starting to like.
I've also shared since I was young what I call a male fascination for sharp and pointy things (I used to sleep with my axe when I was 12 years old...my poor mother who had to repair the sheets...). It's no wonder why, throughout history, swords, knives, and axes have often been representative of technological development of given populations. I've probably made as many tools as pieces of furniture, so for me tools are not just a means to an end. They are also expressions of craftmanship for which, in certain cases, I am ready to pay more.
2¢

 

[Alf]

I don't think making a list of what we find desirable gets us any further toward a consensus.

Maybe not, but if thirty people had all said "not polished" I'd have printed it out and sent it to Henry Taylor... :wink:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Frank D.]

Here's a beautiful chisel set, unpolished with no handles. You can even choose your own tang sizes and bevel angles as well:

 

[Alf]

Frank, I'm in enough trouble re-handling existing ones... :roll: :lol:

 

[MikeW]

"not polished"..."not polished"..."not polished"..."not polished"..."not pol...

Ok, so I deleted the rest of the 30 "not polished" statements.

I think the western mind has been trained to believe polished equals quality.

Give me someone making real firmers just like the Butchers et al that I have and I think they would sell. The edges on the sides have been "broke" enough to not cut oneself. The backs are reasonably flate and I haven't really done much to change that except about halfway up to get to a nice clean edge.

Take care, Mike

 

[Paul Kierstead]

Hmm, tempers flaring over chisels. Quite a nice change from BU vrs BD.

In defense of socket chisels.

I am certainly not going to tell anyone what is good for them, but using socket chisels (specifically LN) have been a bit of a revelation for me.

Balance: The heavy socket significantly alters the balance of the chisel. For me, I really like that balance shift. It feels "right".

Handles: The L-N's in particular have extremely nice handles, at least for my hands. They 'come to' the hand extremely well; just nestling down in there so very very comfortably. This is also very much about balance of course as well and the ..

Neck Crank: This also significantly makes the chisel sit right.

The socket: I really like the socket. For some operations I tend to hold the chisel quite 'forward', and the socket/handle transition area is an extremely comfortable place to hold it. You can hold these for hours happily.

The handle falling out: Ok, this I will admit: I kind of like this. Here we have *extreme* temperature shifts over the year (55+ degrees swing from winter to summer and that isn't with wind chill or humidity which pushes it to 85+ degrees swing.. but the tools don't mind wind chill...). This makes your tools, and other things, have a 'rhythm of the seasons'. It is part of the changing of the seasons and tells you it is getting dry. A few whacks later and all is good. For me, a portion of WW pleasure is ... meditative and ritualistic. I actually like some of the little rituals of preparation and -- when I can calm the mind well -- the meditative processes of flattening a board or tuning a tool. In so much of my life I have to be results focused; in my WW I like to enjoy the process without being in such a rush for a result. So, when the handles drop out I smile, look forward to the upcoming skiing and smack 'em back in.

All in all, I will reach for my socket chisel above the others where appropriate. In the specific case of the LN ones, I do wish they had been O-1 instead, but on the upside they are so close to perfect shape out-of-the-box, it isn't like a huge amount of work is required.

On perfectly flat backs...maybe just make em good enough first of and touch them up every time you sharpen. As time goes by they will become as perfect as they can be.

 

[Philly]

Paul
Amen, Brother! :sign3:
I feel until you have used average, bad and downright terrible tools you cannot appreciate a finely made one. I would not recommend that a beginner goes out and spends a big pile of cash on high-end tools but once on the road (or Slope :wink: ) you can appreciate the work that has gone into them and their refinements.
A better tool does not guarantee better workmanship-but if you are in a position to try them do give them a go.
Cheers
Philly

 

[Frank D.]

Frank, I'm in enough trouble re-handling existing ones...

Oh, sorry Alf, I thought you wanted a kit... :wink:

"
I think the western mind has been trained to believe polished equals quality.

I agree Mike. Fine surface grinding is often a sign of quality. Polishing is just a marketing strategy that throws off blade geometry. It's a shame so many manufacturers do it.
I also agree with Paul about the feel of LN chisels. They are my favorite Western chisels, after my own Lie Franksens of course. I'm not so sure about the handles falling off though... of course the Japanese have got all angles covered, with tanged sockets.

 

[bugbear]

Here's a beautiful chisel set, unpolished with no handles. You can even choose your own tang sizes and bevel angles as well:

AH! The ultimate in "needs some final tuning by the user" tools.

BugBear