Victor Socket Chisels or Kirschen 1101 Bevel Edge Chisels?

[David C]

I have supplied my best advice to the question asked.

It is not amusing to have this quoted back, sentence by sentence.......................................................................................}.

It remains my considered, best advice.

Bugbear,

I for one am quite happy to forgive Jim his foible, largely exhibited after his official retirement. He was a wonderful craftsman, taught hundreds? of apprentices, and had an unrivalled breadth and depth of knowledge.

I did some of my best work in the seventies, with rubbish tools. It was a serious struggle. Today we are very fortunate, due to the wonderful tools which are now available, also including some of the excellent old tools which one may be lucky enough to find. Fighting with poor tools is no longer necessary. A good craftsman will make a tool from mild steel and make it work but beginners need something that works, without too much fuss.

ps There used to be some Sandvik plastic handled chisels with excellent steel & hardness. 1970's plastic handled Stanleys were not bad either. Nice delicate edges on the bevel edged bench chisels.

 

[Ian Dalziel]

I have supplied my best advice to the question asked.

It is not amusing to have this quoted back, sentence by sentence.......................................................................................}.

It remains my considered, best advice.

sorry about quoting you!!!!

theres a book running on just how much longer you'll last here...youve done extremely well so far and your advice is appreciated by most

Ian

 

[deirdre]

I love that David C is here.

Tonight, I made my first dado where I'd used a saw on the sides and chiseled out the middle. It wasn't as bad as I was expecting (though it's not a work of art, to be sure). The plastic-handled Marples chisel did a creditable job.

 

[Alf]

Re: Quoting :arrow: Mr Charlesworth

Sorry, it just helps me keep track of what I'm responding to and saves me typing an explanation of the point I'm referring to. In short it saves misunderstanding. But it's not a great writing style, albeit slightly less ponderous than this...

All else I have to say I'll confine to a private email.

Cheers, Alf

 

[MikeW]

Burn the Heretic! (Hi, Mike :mrgreen: )

Ha, did I ever mention the registrar at the Bible College I went to wanted to do just that?

Mr. C--Some of the better chisels I had used up to then were black plastic handled Sandviks. The only one which survived the theft of many of my tools was rehandled last year in Honduran Rosewood.

I just used it yesterday and today to chisel through the metal strapping on a couple crates :lol: Hardly dulled...

If I used my bench chisels for more tasks than I do, I would certainly rehandle them. But they do take a whacking.

The Butcher firmers get far more use. The handles have slowly gotten tired of being struck and replaced over time with a longish handle for the amount of blade they have left, but are comfortable to use.

There, am I redeemed? :wink:

 

[Anonymous]

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[bugbear]

I did some of my best work in the seventies, with rubbish tools. It was a serious struggle. Today we are very fortunate, due to the wonderful tools which are now available, also including some of the excellent old tools which one may be lucky enough to find. Fighting with poor tools is no longer necessary. A good craftsman will make a tool from mild steel and make it work but beginners need something that works, without too much fuss.

Heartily agreed. It was Jim's pursuit of the absolute best tools that irked me.

I'm all in favour of "good" tools.

BugBear

 

[Evergreen]

How have I missed this thread? What larks!

Yes, I'm a plastic handled chisel fan too. I've got a set of Stanley 5001s bought in the 1970s, and as Mr C has said, they're good. No, they're very good - flat backs, decent steel and handles graduated to the size of the blade. Ah, but I've also got some wooden handled chisels that I've inherited from my grandad (joiner for over 50 years) and others that I've found in flea markets. They're good too but I have to say that not all old chisels hold their edge - I soon got rid of the ones that didn't.

I also have a slight sneaking sort of puritan ethic that creeps up on me every so often: if I can produce work at the standard I want with 'bog-standard' stuff, there's a small voice that makes me feel guilty when I spend frivolous money to get the same effect. Not consistent - but honest.. :wink:

Spot on, Shady, I know exactly what you mean. And for me, it's also a matter of acknowledging that sometimes, for some purposes, there are better materials than solid wood.

So do I use my plastic handled chisels on my plastic front door?

At this point, I sense a big Monty Python foot about to come down and a voice saying "Stop! this is getting too silly....!!!"

 

[Anonymous]

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[Shady]

Take a look at the photo of a spectacular wooden-handled chisel collection earlier in this thread - all obviously untouched by human hand!

Careful there, Jacob: if you're referring to Mike W's collection, he's definitely a user... :wink:

This has generated some interesting thoughts. I wouldn't want anyone to get stroppy with anyone else - we're all here because of a genuine interest in tools, after all (no funny comments, you eejits!). It has made me really think about one of the aspects of tool use that gives me most pleasure.

I think I'd sum it up by saying that, for me, whilst I couldn't agree more with David C that rubbish tools are a recipe for either disaster or extraordinary work to get a result (and believe me, I've learned that the hard way...), there is at the same time a sort of pleasure in minimalism, where using a simple tool, that's fit for purpose, for a long period of time, is immensely rewarding.

I do slightly wonder about the cost of the L-Ns, for example. I'm sure that Tom L-N is only offering a price that only reflects the costs of producing what is obviously a finely made tool, properly finished: but a chisel is possibly one of the least difficult tools to make 'fit for purpose' with respect to the blade shape, bevels etc.

I mean, check out my offering here: http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/Shady_on_Sharpening.htm

That chisel is still in use with me today - and took all of about ten minutes to get from 'throw away' to 'heirloom'....

For me, the only real chisel selling point is blade steel quality, and, purely for speed of prep, not having a convex back...

However - if you've got the money to burn, enjoy fine offerings: planes, now - that's a different subject all together... :wink:

 

[Alf]

I've got some 5001s also bought in the 70s

There's something of a pattern building here. A lot of these desirable chisels seem to be 30 years old. Personaly I don't see many 30 year old plastic-handled chisels that are worth the time of day. I may, of course, be unique in this.

Still going strong after years of brutal, heavy-handed mis-use. <snip> Chisel handles is one area where plastic is better than wood.

Anyone esle see a connection there? Anyone?

The toolies wouldn't know this of course - because they don't use them much.

That's right, Jacob, our lily white's would probably blister at their touch. Oh wait, maybe that's the point... :roll:

Take a look at the photo of a spectacular wooden-handled chisel collection earlier in this thread - all obviously untouched by human hand!

Mike's? Oh dear, you've really picked the wrong guy there. :lol: Here's his website, although I'm sure he's got more pics if you ask nicely.

It gets tedious hearing ordinary low-end tools like most of us have to work with, being slagged off all the time.

D'you know what's even more tedious than that? Hearing that having high-end tools means you have no skill. Any time you want to call a truce, just say the word.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

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[Alf]

I do slightly wonder about the cost of the L-Ns, for example. I'm sure that Tom L-N is only offering a price that only reflects the costs of producing what is obviously a finely made tool, properly finished: but a chisel is possibly one of the least difficult tools to make 'fit for purpose' with respect to the blade shape, bevels etc.

Hey up, Shady, you slipped that in when I was mid-compose. The thing I wonder is; if chisels are so easy to make, why are so many of them so badly made? The conclusion I come to is it's because they appear to be so easy to make people expect them to be cheaper. So hey, they're made to a price which, inevitably, means they're not made very well. It's a theory anyway.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Anonymous]

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[Alf]

snip

It gets tedious hearing ordinary low-end tools like most of us have to work with, being slagged off all the time.

D'you know what's even more tedious than that? Hearing that having high-end tools means you have no skill.

I didn't say that did I?

The toolies wouldn't know this of course - because they don't use them much.

:-s

Any time you want to call a truce, just say the word.

Cheers, Alf

Not whilst I'm winning!

Like **** you are

 

[bugbear]

I do slightly wonder about the cost of the L-Ns, for example. I'm sure that Tom L-N is only offering a price that only reflects the costs of producing what is obviously a finely made tool, properly finished: but a chisel is possibly one of the least difficult tools to make 'fit for purpose' with respect to the blade shape, bevels etc.

The reason the LN's are expensive is ... A2.

The stuff carries a heavy premium as raw stock, and requires more difficult heat treatment (which means snazzier equipment to do it).

But.

It's also difficult to forge. And TLN decided (probably due to the biases of the USA market) to make socket chisels (*).

And forging A2 is (apparently) not easy. Extremely "not easy".

So - yes indeedy, finely made, properly heat treated, socket A2 chisels are expensive to make.

BugBear

(*) Why you need to strength of a socket for anything other than morticing escapes me.

 

[Anonymous]

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[Shady]

Bugbear,

The reason the LN's are expensive is ... A2.

I'm not so sure, mate. If you look at the cost of a Veritas replacement plane blade in A2, it's much less, for not much less steel, in total... I'm sure I read somewhere that the expense with TL-N's chisels was because they're properly finished, with decent bevels and flattened backs: so I think it's a mixture of all the factors that go into making a good quality tool today...

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with their price - either way, I'm confident it reflects the expense of producing them.

Mr G - if your chisels are European pattern, as opposed to Japanese, then my understanding is that this was an economy measure, in which the harder 'edge holding' steel was laminated to softer stuff in manufacture. I can see the lamination point on an Ibbotson plane blade I've got, and on several older chisels. Most of the tools of any quality I've seen describe the edge holding stuff as 'cast crucible' steel.

Of course, if you're a Japanese chisel fan, it's a deliberate ploy to give some flexible response to battering... :wink:

 

[Alf]

The reason the LN's are expensive is ... A2.

Alas, no; Shady's quite right. T L-N tells me it's the work that goes into them you're paying for, not the raw material. Apparently O1 versions would cost the same. (Hope I'm remembering that correctly; maybe I'd better go and dig out those old emails. :shock: )

Jacob, the woodworking world has gone slightly doo-lally about fancy steels I'm afraid. It's all greek to me, but it just seems to boil down to them being more fussy about sharpening. :roll: I think the argument for not laminating used to be that the materials were cheaper than the labour nowadays, but with the hike in prices for the raw materials, is this really still the case? Or is it just we've lost the skills? IMO half the trouble is folks compare A2 or D17 or whatever to the crappy stuff used as tool steel in the likes of Stanley planes, instead of comparing it to good steel of the more mundane variety. S'not apples with apples.

Cheers, Alf

 

[bugbear]

shady and alf; please read all I wrote, not just the first sentence.

Just to try and be helpful, the only place I know where you can buy 01 and A2 items that are DEAD equivalent is hock.

http://www.hocktools.com/products.htm

O1 2" bench blade 37.50

A2 2" bench blade 44.00

That's a 17% hike on an item without much shaping or working.

BugBear