Victor Socket Chisels or Kirschen 1101 Bevel Edge Chisels?

[Mirboo]

We say no to plastic handles.

Actually, given the usual stuff that Lee Valley produce they probably aren't bad chisels. I'd be interested to hear from anybody who has used them.

 

[bugbear]

Jim Kingshott's quote is his! There is a salutory story to go with it for any who care to read it.
Jim was one of the last of the traditional, apprentice trained cabinetmakers. He had vast experience and evidently an open mind, as demonstrated by his conversion to Japanese tools and WATERSTONES. He was extremely helpful and kind to me when I rang up to discuss obscure technical issues. We are unlikely to ever see a man of his depth of experience and knowledge again.

David Charlesworth

Indeed. My only "issue" with Mr Kingshott was his belief that the best work can only be done with the best tools. I feel his over-emphasis on this (and his habit of illustrating technical articles on tools with super-exotic examples from his own collection) was needlessly off putting.

In his planing video (for example) he appears to say the "proper" accurate jointing can only be done with a "british pattern" plane, and proceeds to use his (legendary in some circles) self made 30" infill jointer...

For "most of us" the tools are not the limiting factor, and (as Ian Kirby has shown) rather fine work can be done with rather ordinary tools - properly prepared and used.

BugBear

 

[Alf]

AHOY! Broadside salvo of grape shot coming........

I believe the traditional cry at this point is "For what we are about to receive..." 8-[]

Cheap Japanese chisels are horrible. They are badly ground, badly shaped, often crooked with nasty hoops, and can take forever to prepare.

I must have got lucky then :? That's probably a first. :lol:

My extensive tests and use on L-N A2 cryo chisels lead me to exactly the same conclusion as the "Australian Wood Review" test which Mirboo kindly posted.

Well I like 'em, but for reasons other than the steel :lol:

Alf's difficulty with A2 seems directly related to her chosen sharpening method. While tougher and taking a little longer to grind on my Tormek, the sharpening of A2 takes me about three strokes more. The whole resharpening process taking no more than 4 minutes.

Yeah, but David they were expensive enough without having to buy a Tormek and set up with waterstones - it's A2's difficulty with my sharpening set up, s'what you mean. :wink:

I have pared hardwoods of all kinds, with a 32 degree angle, for many years, using both Japanese and A2. This works perfectly well if the edge is SHARP.

Please, sir, I too can do so with a 32 degree angle ('cos oil stones can sharpen stuff - honest). But it's more efficient to use the lowest bevel possible, isn't it? I mean, there's quite a long-standing tradition of lower angles for paring.

Jim Kingshott's quote is his! There is a salutory story to go with it for any who care to read it.

Où est-il? I'm not familiar with it off hand. I had a look in "The Workshop" and "Making and Modifying Woodworking Tools" but not a sausage. In fact an octaganol handle is one of the patterns shown in "Making and Modifying" to try out and see what suits the reader. But that wasn't really what I asked though; what's your own experience with them? It's not a dig (although potentially it might sound like it) but rather that your opinion carries considerable weight so I want to know exactly what I futilely going in to bat against

Jim was one of the last of the traditional, apprentice trained cabinetmakers. He had vast experience and evidently an open mind, as demonstrated by his conversion to Japanese tools and WATERSTONES. He was extremely helpful and kind to me when I rang up to discuss obscure technical issues. We are unlikely to ever see a man of his depth of experience and knowledge again.

Hey, if there's a Kingshott Appreciation Society where do I sign up? But it just doesn't come naturally to me to take everything one Authority says as gospel truth without question. Ha hum, you may have noticed that... Even Authorities are human and have their own preferences. On the other hand, once I am convinced about a certain thing I tend defend it to the hilt. Still waiting to be convinced I really need a woodie, Bailey and Infill jointer to joint an edge mind you... :lol:

Cheers, Alf

 

[Alf]

Just as an aside, for Nads, actually Veritas/Lee-Valley do have an 'own brand' set of chisels:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3&p=30028&cat=1,41504,43500&ap=1

But I suspect that the 'purely functional' handles may well leave you cold... :wink:

If the steel's any good you can always rehandle them. We have the technology. viz: Wood.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Shady]

If the steel's any good you can always rehandle them. We have the technology. viz: Wood.

Actually, I'm something of a heretic with regard to chisels. As stated elsewhere, one of my favourite purchases was a set of these:

http://www.axminster.co.uk/recno/3/product-Axminster-Euro-Bevel-Edge-Chisels-21818.htm

Totally utilitarian, totally effective for me. I'd actually rate those Lee Valleys as pretty functional looking: those handles will take some serious (ahem) hammering, should it be required...

I've always worried more about the point made in that link of yours, Mirboo:

"the best chisel is a sharp chisel"... So long as they're not actually unusable in terms of a convex back, or untempered steel, I just can't see the need to go expensive. Don't all abuse me at once - I'm sure the nice ones are super, but I've never felt the need to buy them...

 

[Colin C]

"the best chisel is a sharp chisel"... So long as they're not actually unusable in terms of a convex back, or untempered steel, I just can't see the need to go expensive. Don't all abuse me at once - I'm sure the nice ones are super, but I've never felt the need to buy them...

I have to agree with Shady on this, as long as it holds a good egde and useable, that is fine for me ( most of mine or old Marples and do me fine ) 8-[
I will get my coat

 

[Colin C]

I also have some plastic handled stanleys and use them for site work 8-[ :-$

 

[Adam]

I also have some plastic handled stanleys and use them for site work 8-[ :-$

I use some plastic handled ones for opening tins of paint. I save my manky screwdrivers for stirring them once open. :? :shock:

Oh dear, I'd better go and hid in the bunker.

Adam

 

[Colin C]

My stanleys are the old black handled ones and hold a very good edge.

 

[Shady]

My stanleys are the old black handled ones and hold a very good edge.

Yup - I've got some of them - made a lovely little skew chisel out of one, with 5 minutes work on a wet grinder. Proper 'user' tools, they are.

 

[Paul Chapman]

I've always used Marples chisels with plastic handles :shock: Some blue ones that I've had for about 30 years and some green ones that I bought more recently. I'd like some nicer-looking wooden handled ones but the plastic ones have always done what I want them to do, so I've never been able to justify to myself the cost of getting "better" ones :wink:

Paul

 

[Alf]

Coo, this is right up there with the suggestion of having an oak-effect plastic front door. :roll: :lol:

Here's this thing again, that somehow extra Brownie points are earned for using not particularly pleasant tools, which I don't honestly understand. If you're doing it for a living, why make your working conditions unpleasant? And if it's a hobby, well that's even dafter. Unless your hobby is actually "making do" or "being a martyr" :wink: , which I can sort of understand. Plastic handled chisels are ideal for whacking with a hammer on site. i.e. Abuse. But why waste time making one into a skew chisel if you're not also going to take the time to give it a nice handle? Isn't liking wood kind of a given if you're a woodworker?

Oh well, probably just me.

Cheers, Alf

Who has turned a black-handled Stanley chisel into a skew chisel - and promptly made a wooden handle for it. Makes hammer handles relatively less futile as an exercise I s'pose... :lol:

 

[Colin C]

I have tosay that I have found the blue handle marples very unpleasant to use as there have square handles :?

I think you have been lucky as most people I know that have used them have had trouble with them holding an edge.

I dont think you have to spend lots of money to get a good set of chisels as one of the wookwork mags found out
http://www.itslondon.co.uk/pd_PROALUCHI ... umCase.htm
One of the mags gave them 5 out 5 but I would guess they are not to ever ones taste, for some one starting it might well be a good place to start
( Be gentle with me 8-[ )

 

[Mirboo]

I must admit that some of my chisels have plastic handles.

I've got a couple of plastic handled Bahco's (the red ones) that I turned into skew chisels, an old Sandvick and a few old Stanleys that have plastic handles.

 

[MikeW]

Just as an aside, for Nads, actually Veritas/Lee-Valley do have an 'own brand' set of chisels:

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=3&p=30028&cat=1,41504,43500&ap=1

But I suspect that the 'purely functional' handles may well leave you cold... :wink:

Yep, got some:

They were a functional replacement to my stolen chisels. And they were a bit less expensive when I bought them compared to today. Today, I would just purchase the AIs--but with the understanding that there could be issues. Here in the US there seems to be less issues...

As I don't use bench chisels as much as perhaps most people, the handles have never bothered me. If I were to bother, I like the shape and size so would probably replicate them in general.

Take care, Mike

 

[Paul Chapman]

Well, if plastic chisel handles are good enough for MikeW (he of the beautiful wooden saw handles), then I don't feel so bad about mine :wink: :wink:

Paul

 

[Alf]

Burn the Heretic! (Hi, Mike :mrgreen: )

 

[Shady]

Here's this thing again, that somehow extra Brownie points are earned for using not particularly pleasant tools, which I don't honestly understand. If you're doing it for a living, why make your working conditions unpleasant? And if it's a hobby, well that's even dafter. Unless your hobby is actually "making do" or "being a martyr" Wink , which I can sort of understand. Plastic handled chisels are ideal for whacking with a hammer on site. i.e. Abuse. But why waste time making one into a skew chisel if you're not also going to take the time to give it a nice handle? Isn't liking wood kind of a given if you're a woodworker?

You're missing the point Alf: for some of us, there's a real pleasure to be had from knowing that a tool is as capable as it needs to be, and needs minimal maintenance (other than the blade...). It becomes a sort of trusted old friend, that's appreciated for the way in which it fulfills its role with no added bells or whistles... 'Form follows function' and all that. It's like my favourite mini-maglite torch: after 18 years in my pocket, and 3 wars, it's lost almost all the black anodising and it's got dents eveywhere - but I know it'll work, and I take real pleasure from using something that's been with me for a while, and does 'just what it says on the tin'. (nb - if you use maglites, a lick of vaseline on the 'o' ring once a year keeps it sweet for ever...)

There's a case to be made that a butyl or plastic handle is more functional than a wooden one: it'll never rot, or develop splits, and can be wellied with a mallet or hammer without mushrooming... It won't come loose with changes in humidity. So it's not about using 'not particularly pleasant' tools for me - it's about using funtional tools that do what they should, with no claims to anything else. And, of course, if the handles do shatter or whatever, I'll bang a wooden one on, and use it for another few years.

I also have a slight sneaking sort of puritan ethic that creeps up on me every so often: if I can produce work at the standard I want with 'bog-standard' stuff, there's a small voice that makes me feel guilty when I spend frivolous money to get the same effect. Not consistent - but honest.. :wink:

 

[Alf]

I also have a slight sneaking sort of puritan ethic that creeps up on me every so often

Ah hah! There's a depressing tendency to that in my family - I fight it daily.

Now see I did say:

Plastic handled chisels are ideal for whacking with a hammer on site. i.e. Abuse.

Which is pretty much what you're saying there. Wooden handles don't need extra maintenance or special care if used in the right enviroment for the job they were intended for, but yes, they do respond negatively to big blokes wiv 'ammers.

Cheers, Alf

 

[Paul Chapman]

Burn the Heretic! (Hi, Mike :mrgreen: )

Bet those handles are burn-proof as well as split-proof :wink:

Paul