Very very Nice Bling Safe Sliding Saw by Altendorf.

[Agent_zed]

Yes definitely if your hand is going nearer than say 10" to the blade, but obviously not if you are on the far end of an 8x4'

Interesting you advocate safe working practice but mention running an 8x4 through a table saw. Most table saws don't have a table or outfeed big enough to accomodate an 8x4 sheet and if you are cutting a sheet that big you will not only be trying to prevent the board dropping downwards (which will lift the blade guard) but you'll be trying to keep the board straight to prevent the blade binding. The chances of being able to let go of the sheet to get to the off switch are pretty low as you are likely needing to hold the sheet with both hands and the sheet will most likely be covering the off button even if you could let go.

A track saw in this instance would likely be safer.

 

[Jacob]

Interesting you advocate safe working practice but mention running an 8x4 through a table saw. Most table saws don't have a table or outfeed big enough to accomodate an 8x4 sheet and if you are cutting a sheet that big you will not only be trying to prevent the board dropping downwards (which will lift the blade guard) but you'll be trying to keep the board straight to prevent the blade binding. The chances of being able to let go of the sheet to get to the off switch are pretty low as you are likely needing to hold the sheet with both hands and the sheet will most likely be covering the off button even if you could let go.

A track saw in this instance would likely be safer.

Yes of course you couldn't run an 8x4' through a machine if it doesn't have the capacity. Hardly worth saying!
It was just a turn of phrase - meaning that if your hands are far enough away you don't need push sticks.
Often the case but handy to have them on hand e.g. so you can pick one up for the last push past the blade etc.

 

[recipio]

You have to admit it's a great design. The blade is driven down without waiting for gravity and it doesn't ruin the blade. A much better system than Sawstop.

 

[TRITON]

like a yank in a sales pitch for a very expensive daft gadget

I've met this Yank. He sits on my shoulder whispering into my ear.

 

[Ttrees]

Looks like an overpriced one trick pony if you ask me.
Just for some perspective have a looksey at this wee beauty.

Ain't it refreshing to see that at least some folks are having a crack at pushing the boat out!

 

[Sachakins]

Training and safety features are not either or, they should go hand in hand.
One does not negate the need of the other.

 

[Jacob]

Training and safety features are not either or, they should go hand in hand.
One does not negate the need of the other.

Agree. The purveyors of the ludicrously expensive hi tech solutions are completely ignoring the need for safe handling practices - in fact encouraging them.

 

[Agent_zed]

Agree. The purveyors of the ludicrously expensive hi tech solutions are completely ignoring the need for safe handling practices - in fact encouraging them.

I don't agree with this. At what point is the cross over between what you consider a hi tech solution and more training needed. My table saw has an electric brake to stop the blade quickly when it is turned off. It also has a switch that doesn't stay on if the electric is cut (forgotten the proper name). Is this hi-tech? Probably was compared to switches in the 70's. Sure I could be trained to remember to turn off the switch if there is a power cut but for the odd time it happens I'd rather know the saw isn't just going to start back up and that it is going to stop relatively quickly when I want it to.

The old boys with PTO driven table saws probably said the same as you when someone said there should be a guard on the saw. I'm sure it's fine if you don't go too near the 3ft blade, just need to have proper training!

According to a quick google there are about 30,000 table saw accidents in the US per year. Surely its better to design in something that mitigates a large proportion of these however high tech that may be. Would be interesting to see how this would change if every saw was a sawstop or this system.

The only alternative is to have mandatory training before you are allowed to buy a table saw and then periodic tests to ensure your training is up to date. And even that won't prevent all accidents.

As for 'encouraging' unsafe handling practices, the only alternative to providing something that prevents you cutting your fingers off if you make a mistake is to not have something that prevents you cutting your fingers off if you make a mistake. Which is basically saying 'Hey if you have 1 accident and cut your hand off on our saw, that you might use day in day out for 30 years, then that's a you problem'.

 

[Jacob]

I don't agree with this. At what point is the cross over between what you consider a hi tech solution and more training needed. My table saw has an electric brake to stop the blade quickly when it is turned off. It also has a switch that doesn't stay on if the electric is cut (forgotten the proper name). Is this hi-tech?

Fairly low tech and not expensive. Brakes tend to fail, or aren't adjusted, so it's always important to make sure visually that the thing has stopped.

....

According to a quick google there are about 30,000 table saw accidents in the US per year. Surely its better to design in something that mitigates a large proportion of these however high tech that may be.

They have appalling safety standards in terms of handling. You can see it in video after video.

Would be interesting to see how this would change if every saw was a sawstop or this system.

They'd soon catch up with safe handling practices if the alternative was to have to spend a fortune on saw stops etc.

The only alternative is to have mandatory training before you are allowed to buy a table saw and then periodic tests to ensure your training is up to date. And even that won't prevent all accidents.

The "alternative" is to cultivate safe practices by all means. It's very simple - never have your hand nearer to a TS blade than 6 to 10" ish. Also applies to planer blades, spindle moulder, etc etc.

As for 'encouraging' unsafe handling practices,

The yanks make unsafe practices look normal. No money to be made in telling them to stop it!

PS I presume you are buying the sawstop of one sort or another. Or if not, why not?

 

[deema]

It’s funny, it always amuses me the debate over safety devices. Me, I wear that manby pamby seat belt, ensure my car has air bags every where, anti skid, anti brake something or other, look forward radar etc etc. makes me feel far more secure as I boy race everywhere knowing I can’t have an accident.

Now I know, taking them all out, along with the collapsing steering column, front and rear crumple zones, roll over cage, stick radial tyres back on and who needs disc brakes because drums give you more fade, would enhance the feel of my driving experience and let me do it like my daddy and grandad did would make me drive more carefully.

I equally like a banister on my stairs, carbon monoxide alarm, MCB and RCD on my electrics in the house. I know if I trained the grand kids in H&S they won’t be needed, and they are only more likely to be idiots with them in place.

I appreciate I’m a northern softy, not a real man, and don’t have the right attitude or use two push sticks for taking hot pans off the stove, but I can still count to ten without taking my socks off!

 

[Housey210]

This saw would be even safer if it had a crown guard attached to riving knife and he was using push sticks instead of hands. In fact their safety system would be quite redundant and a complete waste of money.
It also encourages unsafe practices and could itself fail.
They are just trying to sell a lot of unnecessary gear - not much profit to be made out of push sticks even though they are much safer!
Or is it just a joke? I didn't watch to the end!

If the video was watched both the riving knife and blade drops down below table when sensors detect the hand!

 

[Jacob]

It’s funny, it always amuses me the debate over safety devices. Me, I wear that manby pamby seat belt, ensure my car has air bags every where, anti skid, anti brake something or other, look forward radar etc etc. makes me feel far more secure as I boy race everywhere knowing I can’t have an accident.

Now I know, taking them all out, along with the collapsing steering column, front and rear crumple zones, roll over cage, stick radial tyres back on and who needs disc brakes because drums give you more fade, would enhance the feel of my driving experience and let me do it like my daddy and grandad did would make me drive more carefully.

I equally like a banister on my stairs, carbon monoxide alarm, MCB and RCD on my electrics in the house. I know if I trained the grand kids in H&S they won’t be needed, and they are only more likely to be idiots with them in place.

I appreciate I’m a northern softy, not a real man, and don’t have the right attitude or use two push sticks for taking hot pans off the stove, but I can still count to ten without taking my socks off!

Yebbut you still have to have training, pass a test, keep your eyes open, two hands on the steering wheel and your feet near the pedals.
Are you buying sawstop etc for all your machines? If not why not?

 

[deema]

Yebbut you still have to keep your eyes open, two hands on the steering wheel and your feet near the pedals.

Self driving?? My company car self drove up to 15 miles an hour (that’s going back a few years) on the motorway and Elon has taken it further. Trains can already drive themselves, planes take off and land without pilot’s intervention. Won’t be long before self driving cars will be standard……but I know, some will prefer to roll the dice and operate the controls with two push sticks and no parachute……just like our brave pilots were forced to do in WW1

 

[Jacob]

Self driving?? My company car self drove up to 15 miles an hour (that’s going back a few years) on the motorway and Elon has taken it further. Trains can already drive themselves, planes take off and land without pilot’s intervention. Won’t be long before self driving cars will be standard……but I know, some will prefer to roll the dice and operate the controls with two push sticks and no parachute……just like our brave pilots were forced to do in WW1

Woodwork machinery can also be entirely hands off in the form of CNC etc. That'd be a more sensible route than sawstop and the assumption that the operator is a moron!

 

[Agent_zed]

They'd soon catch up with safe handling practices if the alternative was to spend a fortune on saw stops etc.

30,000 people being injured per year and they still haven't caught up with safe handling practices. That might tell you something.

PS I presume you are buying the sawstop of one sort or another. Or if not, why not?

I currently rarely use my table saw and when I do I treat it like the angry dog it is, ready to bite me. When my current saw eventually dies I intend to buy a sawstop as as much as I like to think I do everything safely there is always the opportunity to do that 1 mistake that will cost me my fingers.

I don't think anybody is arguing against safe handling practices as they will reduce a huge amount of accidents, and I certainly try to adhere to them myself. But to think that they will always keep people safe is beyond wishful thinking. Accidents happen regardless of training.

And the idea that new 'hi-tech' safety features, that would mitigate against common accidents, shouldn't be added on the basis that you should just train yourself not to cut your fingers off, is slightly odd to me.

 

[Agent_zed]

I mean why have anything other than this Log into Facebook perfectly safe if you adhere to safe working practices.

 

[deema]

I think my kids missed out not having the character building experience or chance to earn a few pennies sweeping under the looms and spinning Jennies or opening the traps in the mines. perfectly safe as long as you kept your head down, didn’t poke your fingers where they weren’t supposed to be. Progress! Makes us all softies and high risk takers now that all those old ways are no longer with us

 

[Jacob]

..... But to think that they will always keep people safe is beyond wishful thinking.

Nobody says that

..

And the idea that new 'hi-tech' safety features, that would mitigate against common accidents, shouldn't be added

OK if you can afford it - and on all the machines not just one.

on the basis that you should just train yourself not to cut your fingers off, is slightly odd to me.

If you think you are at risk of cutting your fingers off you urgently need some training and it could save you a fortune, as well as a few fingers!
Getting handy with two push sticks is is much better value for money IMHO, not to mention instantly available wherever you are, and useful on most machines. Also means you are not dependant on just one expensive but id iot proof machine. I'd consider CNC first if I was that id iot!

 

[Agent_zed]

If you think you are at risk of cutting your fingers off you urgently need some training and it could save you a fortune, as well as a few fingers!

It's a table saw with a 250mm (or more) TCT blade spinning at a couple of thousand rpm, there is always a risk of cutting your fingers off!! If you get complacent because you think you've had enough training then that's when you do cut your fingers off.

Push sticks will not remove every potential risk.

What happens if there is a medical issue. You are standing at your table saw pushing something through and you have an epileptic seizure, or a stroke, or a heart attack, or feint, or even a wasp comes and stings you and you inadvertently flail. Is it likely? probably not, but I'm sure it has happened.

You cannot train your way out the above. That's what makes some things accidents.

 

[Jacob]

It's a table saw with a 250mm (or more) TCT blade spinning at a couple of thousand rpm, there is always a risk of cutting your fingers off!!

Not if you don't put them near it when it's on.
Would a diagram help? It shouldn't really need explaining, it's like learning to drive a car - you wouldn't have to tell a learner not to let go of the steering wheel!

It's the same with open fires or cooking apparatus. Do you burn your fingers often? I see that could make you cautious. Maybe you should give up on them altogether, or take some advice perhaps? It's much simpler than you think!

What happens if there is a medical issue. You are standing at your table saw pushing something through and you have an epileptic seizure, or a stroke, or a heart attack, or feint, or even a wasp comes and stings you and you inadvertently flail. Is it likely? probably not, but I'm sure it has happened.

Yes you might get a cut a cut or fall over and bang your head. A fairly remote risk.
But compare the same to driving a car - you could suffer serious injury and cause death to self and others. A real hazard.
Have to get these things in proportion.