Veritas PM-V11 plane irons for Stanley & Record

[shed9]

nb 'PM-V11' doesn't mean anything it's just a bit of advertising hype coming from LV, means much the same as the advertisers 'new' or 'improved'.

Actually it does, the PM part refers to Powdered Metal and is quite a high end process in producing a consistently grained alloy. They effectively atomise various metals into a very fine and graded powder and then form billet's using pressure and intense heat. The end billets are subsequently formed into the blade as they would any other form of steel.

The end result is a a very high quality alloy with incredible consistency and predictable qualities.

This isn't hype, a lot of companies are utilising and moving to PM. Veritas it would appear are simply ahead of the curve.

 

[Jacob]

.........
This isn't hype, a lot of companies are utilising and moving to PM. Veritas it would appear are simply ahead of the curve.

PM V11 is their own name for it but there's nothing new about it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_metallurgy
It's a money saver - less machining etc.

 

[shed9]

.........
This isn't hype, a lot of companies are utilising and moving to PM. Veritas it would appear are simply ahead of the curve.

PM V11 is their own name for it but there's nothing new about it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_metallurgy
It's a money saver - less machining etc.

Yes, the v11 part is their designation and its certainly not a money saver by any stretch of anyone's imagination. My point was PM V11 does mean something and it's not hype.

 

[essexalan]

Still have to harden and temper the stuff so where do you get less machining? Base product will cost more because of the manufacturing. I bet you don't use TCT blades on your circular saws and router bits do you? Modern Record blister pack blades are pretty much junk IMO so you have to go to the trouble of hunting down old steel in the hope you get a good iron, not guaranteed and they are running out. Limited production and lousy exchange rate hence the price.

 

[Jacob]

Still have to harden and temper the stuff so where do you get less machining?

It says so here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_metallurgy
Reduces cost apparently

Base product will cost more because of the manufacturing. I bet you don't use TCT blades on your circular saws and router bits do you? Modern Record blister pack blades are pretty much junk IMO so you have to go to the trouble of hunting down old steel in the hope you get a good iron, not guaranteed and they are running out. Limited production and lousy exchange rate hence the price.

Yes of course I use TCT blades. Nothing wrong with PM technology but it's not obvious that PM plane blades have a significant advantage. Could be wrong but nothing I've read so far is very interesting!
Normal ones are cheap, effective, and sharpening isn't much of a problem with any blade. It's another solution to something which isn't a problem. There's a lot of that in woodwork!

 

[Cheshirechappie]

Normal ones are cheap, effective, and sharpening isn't much of a problem with any blade. It's another solution to something which isn't a problem. There's a lot of that in woodwork!

Jacob, do you prefer to use wooden spoons for your stirring, or are you prepared to use one of those new-fangled and unnecessary metal ones? :lol:

 

[Sawdust=manglitter]

People are passionate about their opinions, fair doos. All very informative though

And you'd sware noone's ever discussed sharpening on this forum!?

 

[Jacob]

Normal ones are cheap, effective, and sharpening isn't much of a problem with any blade. It's another solution to something which isn't a problem. There's a lot of that in woodwork!

Jacob, do you prefer to use wooden spoons for your stirring, or are you prepared to use one of those new-fangled and unnecessary metal ones? :lol:

Both, as necessary.
Talking of wooden kitchen utensils - I have several wooden bowls and also chopping boards which have been in regular use for 50 years or more. One was made by my dad. They are amazingly durable. You wouldn't think it until you are faced with a 50 year old bowl still well used and in good nick!
Washed carefully in warm water (not too hot), dried and occasionally olive oiled. Should see me out.

Though it doesn't hold porridge too well

Only joking, this one 100s of years old and not well cared for!

PS of on a brief hol - not been banned, back shortly!

 

[shed9]

It says so here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_metallurgy
Reduces cost apparently.

I have never seen any instance of this in my experience. I suppose the costs could be perceived lower in that producing similar quantities of alloy would produce consistent and known output for PM whereas other processes will result in many failed product within that same batch.

Nothing wrong with PM technology but it's not obvious that PM plane blades have a significant advantage. Could be wrong but nothing I've read so far is very interesting!
Normal ones are cheap, effective, and sharpening isn't much of a problem with any blade. It's another solution to something which isn't a problem. work!

PM metal is in general superior to other types of standard tool steel, i.e. A2, O1, etc, that's just the sheer metallurgy of it. Yes there will be instances where it is not as easy to sharpen as some of those other steels however this is more than offset in the periods between sharpening anyhow.

I always find it odd when people resist anything new under the guise of gimmickry, if we keep using the same materials because we are meant to be content with what we already have, we certainly wouldn't be discussing it via the Internet.

 

[DoctorWibble]

I always find it odd when people resist anything new under the guise of gimmickry

Nothing odd in it at all. Comes from decades of new improved, best ever, and ultimate products. Lavished with enough totally made up technical gobbledygook to wobble the orbit of a small planet. Cynicism is the only natural and sensible response. Which is not to say that progress doesn't happen. But the Jacobs of this world will rarely be wrong. Or disappointed.

Confession: DoctorWibble worked in advertising for 25 years.

 

[Trafalgar]

It stays sharper longer. So what. It doesn't get sharper. If it got sharper and stayed sharper longer now THAT would be something worth crowing about. If you know how to sharpen (and it's not some absurd equipment-laden production) and otherwise take occasional breaks in your shop, then PM V11 steel, and others making similar claims, are a complete nonevent.

Late middle-aged paunchy men (I'm one!) worried about, or claiming they need cutters in their hand planes that stay sharper longer is good for a laugh. That's about it. Keep the laughs coming, boys. Most of our wives are worried they'll come out to the shop and find us dead from a massive infarction, all the while we claim we need to be able to plane for an hour and a half straight instead of 45 minutes straight. Get real.

 

[Phil Pascoe]

... Lavished with enough totally made up technical gobbledygook to wobble the orbit of a small planet.

Did anyone read the article in the press the other day about the world being phallocentric, feminism etc. Where after glorious peer reviews the authors admitted they had made the whole thing up, including many of the terms used in it? It showed brilliantly how gullible people are.

 

[shed9]

Nothing odd in it at all. Comes from decades of new improved, best ever, and ultimate products. Lavished with enough totally made up technical gobbledygook to wobble the orbit of a small planet. Cynicism is the only natural and sensible response. Which is not to say that progress doesn't happen. But the Jacobs of this world will rarely be wrong. Or disappointed.

Confession: DoctorWibble worked in advertising for 25 years.

Granted, false advertising exists, but again not a reason to ignore new technologies. To put this into context, my initial response to Jacobs was to his comment that PM was totally made up technical gobbledygook, which it clearly isn’t. Just as easy as it is for advertising to wax lyrical about the next best pointless product, it’s even easier for the Jacobs of this world to do the opposite for potentially useful product.

It stays sharper longer. So what. It doesn't get sharper. If it got sharper and stayed sharper longer now THAT would be something worth crowing about. If you know how to sharpen (and it's not some absurd equipment-laden production) and otherwise take occasional breaks in your shop, then PM V11 steel, and others making similar claims, are a complete nonevent.
Late middle-aged paunchy men (I'm one!) worried about, or claiming they need cutters in their hand planes that stay sharper longer is good for a laugh. That's about it. Keep the laughs coming, boys. Most of our wives are worried they'll come out to the shop and find us dead from a massive infarction, all the while we claim we need to be able to plane for an hour and a half straight instead of 45 minutes straight. Get real.

PM has advantages and disadvantages like every other type of tool steel out there, just more choice for people is all it is. I get it, you don’t want to use a different steel, could you not find another way to express that?

 

[DoctorWibble]

Granted, false advertising exists, but again not a reason to ignore new technologies....... Just as easy as it is for advertising to wax lyrical about the next best pointless product, it’s even easier for the Jacobs of this world to do the opposite for potentially useful product.

You are right in that Jacob might miss out occasionally but not anywhere near as often as willing believers will be disappointed and out of pocket. There's a lot of sense in being a late adopter. Early adopters are typically motivated more by social competition (having the best and so on) than any need to remove specific problems from their lives. These two groups are never likely to see eye to eye.

I guess if you put enough effort in you might be able to spot the real advances from the chaff before you buy. But even if PMV11 is indeed the dogs, the blades still cost £80 plus. And the buyers likely already have a blade. And they likely have several candidate planes. That's a lot of dough for what exactly? You'd really have to work hard to kid yourself this is likely to be money well spent. And yet punters do work that hard doing exactly this which is one of the marvels revealed by social media. Advertisers have of course noticed which is why they court "opinion leaders" on the internet and are actively seeking all kinds of other ways to "shape" debates like this thread. Jacob, in truth, doesn't stand a chance

 

[Andy Kev.]

Normal ones are cheap, effective, and sharpening isn't much of a problem with any blade. It's another solution to something which isn't a problem. There's a lot of that in woodwork!

Jacob, do you prefer to use wooden spoons for your stirring, or are you prepared to use one of those new-fangled and unnecessary metal ones? :lol:

Both, as necessary.
Talking of wooden kitchen utensils - I have several wooden bowls and also chopping boards which have been in regular use for 50 years or more. One was made by my dad. They are amazingly durable. You wouldn't think it until you are faced with a 50 year old bowl still well used and in good nick!
Washed carefully in warm water (not too hot), dried and occasionally olive oiled. Should see me out.

Though it doesn't hold porridge too well

Only joking, this one 100s of years old and not well cared for!

PS of on a brief hol - not been banned, back shortly!

No, no, no!!! That's not the idea at all! Forget this 100s of years bit: it took you 100s of hours to make and it is a statement about something to do with modern society. That way you'll be able to sell it to Tate Modern for upwards of 250K.

 

[shed9]

You are right in that Jacob might miss out occasionally but not anywhere near as often as willing believers will be disappointed and out of pocket. There's a lot of sense in being a late adopter. Early adopters are typically motivated more by social competition (having the best and so on) than any need to remove specific problems from their lives. These two groups are never likely to see eye to eye.

I guess if you put enough effort in you might be able to spot the real advances from the chaff before you buy. But even if PMV11 is indeed the dogs, the blades still cost £80 plus. And the buyers likely already have a blade. And they likely have several candidate planes. That's a lot of dough for what exactly? You'd really have to work hard to kid yourself this is likely to be money well spent. And yet punters do work that hard doing exactly this which is one of the marvels revealed by social media. Advertisers have of course noticed which is why they court "opinion leaders" on the internet and are actively seeking all kinds of other ways to "shape" debates like this thread. Jacob, in truth, doesn't stand a chance

I agree, there is more dross than good to be extracted from advertising bumpf and being a late adopter is often the sensible approach.

I also agree the PM blades are expensive comparative to any real advantage over the usual suspects but then that's always true of new developments. We rely on the early adopters to take it on, prove the concept and eventually lower the cost by economies of scale for the rest of us, or indeed disprove the concept. I personally have no interest in PM blades in my workshop due to the above comments but equally I'm glad they exist and that vendors like LN and LV continue to offer these options.

 

[Sawdust=manglitter]

From asking for people's experiences of the PM-V11 replacement blades this has turned into an interesting debate!

But even if PMV11 is indeed the dogs, the blades still cost £80 plus.

Hi DrWibble, where have you seen the blades for £80odd? The only place I can find them for sale in the UK is Axminster, and they are £45...
http://www.axminster.co.uk/veritas-pm-v ... s-ax937586
It's a shame that Axminster/brimarc have a monopoly developing as they appear to have stopped supplying any smaller companies so they force us to buy through Axminster!? But I guess that's an entirely separate debate!

 

[essexalan]

Cost for a double iron at Axminster is just over 80 quid. I got mine from Fine Tools which used to be a lot cheaper and yes monopolies stink! Slotted straight in to a Record 5 1/2 but a Stanley Bailey might need a little mouth work. I prefer the Bailey cap iron but you might not and no it is not ready to use straight out of the box.

 

[Sawdust=manglitter]

Am I missing something here... When you say a 'double iron', do you mean with the Veritas cap iron?

 

[D_W]

It says so here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powder_metallurgy
Reduces cost apparently.

I have never seen any instance of this in my experience. I suppose the costs could be perceived lower in that producing similar quantities of alloy would produce consistent and known output for PM whereas other processes will result in many failed product within that same batch.

Nothing wrong with PM technology but it's not obvious that PM plane blades have a significant advantage. Could be wrong but nothing I've read so far is very interesting!
Normal ones are cheap, effective, and sharpening isn't much of a problem with any blade. It's another solution to something which isn't a problem. work!

PM metal is in general superior to other types of standard tool steel, i.e. A2, O1, etc, that's just the sheer metallurgy of it. Yes there will be instances where it is not as easy to sharpen as some of those other steels however this is more than offset in the periods between sharpening anyhow.

I always find it odd when people resist anything new under the guise of gimmickry, if we keep using the same materials because we are meant to be content with what we already have, we certainly wouldn't be discussing it via the Internet.

I can't say I've seen any powder steel that works better in the cycle of work than a decent vintage iron, especially if you start counting things like Ward's better irons. In terms of smoothers with fineness and longevity, the inexpensive rikizai blue steel irons by tsunesaburo still reign supreme.

I've got M2, M4 and V11 irons to compare. I think if a beginner is only taking smoother shavings and has a really long drawn out sharpening progression that takes more than three minutes and involves a bunch of gadgets, maybe. I don't see many professionals jumping to it, though, as this notion of extreme longevity doesn't have much play.

Same thing applies in knives. Nicest cutting pocket knives I've ever used are tidioute 1095. They are properly hard unlike most new knives, and they don't get stuck making over-fat knives. Touch up is one minute on a washita stone, maybe another 30 seconds on a strop. Add alloying elements and the only thing you gain is rust prevention, but I don't work in salt water, so that's hardly a problem (though rust does often strike people who buy lots of things and don't use them - and again, I'd wonder why someone needs special metals if they aren't using tools often enough to keep rust off).

I've bought tools with the new rubbery steels, but I'm just not seeing the real advantage, and they lose the tactile draw that the better vintage tools have.

Recall that high speed steel irons have been around for a long time. You can find them from time to time, but they don't show up very often because they weren't much of a success - despite a public who was apparently willing to pay for expensive infill planes in the UK. It may be that the early tungsten steels were at least as good as the powder metals now, anyway, but they've gone to the wayside due to cost of the stock. They tried to make some razors with that type of steel, and they are OK, but not as nice as plain carbon steel razors - so there are few of them and they only appear over a short time in razor history.