Vaccination

[RobinBHM]

Our death rate is extremely high compared to all advanced countries and our urgent need for a vaccine is because of this

indeed.

Although cultural and demographic differences make country comparisons, nevertheless its fair to say on almost every metric apart from vaccine roll out the UK has performed pretty miserably.

And yes, I would agree: the UK has perhaps the most urgent need to roll out vaccines.

the govt has done focus groups and the thing that came out most was rate of vaccine roll out -my guess is this government has thrown the kitchen sink at any short cut to get the vaccines approved and rolled out with one key strategy: to be the first, which is a political winner. So far as a covid strategy it is also a winner, lets hope taking shortcut has any come backs.

 

[RobinBHM]

I placed a box of Milk Tray chocolates on the table

Top man -I hadnt considered doing that

great post too.

 

[Jonm]

Many aren't doing their normal jobs at all, as they've had to retrain to work with covid patients; and I'd have thought decisions like not treating patients with potentially terminal illnesses in order to treat patients in immanent danger on the covid wards is, indeed, rather difficult and conflicting?

Chris
Spot on, I was about to make that very point.

 

[Jonm]

I was not including the vaccine task group in my statement of difficult decisions but the whole raft of other ones. The various degrees of lockdowns, schools, borders, economy, financial support to business and individuals et al.

I agree with you but you were responding to Woody2shoes whose post was specifically about the vaccine rollout and I therefore deduced that you were referring to the vaccine rollout.

 

[NormanB]

It’s standard work for doctors and nurses - just in difficult and demanding circumstances - what conflicts are you imagining.

I did say ‘decisions’ rather than ‘decision’.

 

[Jonm]

My house is a bit messy this week, but there's no need to talk about me like that.

I am very impressed, you obviously read all of my long post.

 

[Jonm]

I am asking about the South African mutation. I appreciate that it is not widespread in uk at the moment and we need to proceed with the vaccination programme.

What I have trouble finding out is how effective the current vaccines are against the SA Variant. We know that a trial of 2000 people in SA for the AZ vaccine demonstrated that it was fairly ineffective in preventing mild or moderate disease and therefore probably not much use in reducing the spread of the virus. It is however said to produce antibodies and should be effective in reducing severe and acute disease and so reduce hospitalisation and deaths.

With reference to the Pfizer vaccine this is widely reported as being effective against the SA variant however, on closer reading it seems that laboratory tests that have been carried out and is expected to have reduced effectiveness. No trials have been done. Same comment applies to Moderna.

My suspicion is that the media has picked up on the trials of the AZ vaccine in SA . They have then picked up on reports that pfizer and Moderna work but not the caveats about reduced effectiveness and no trials. Never let the details get in the way of a good story.

Does anyone have any better insight in to this. I will continue to listen and follow what Professors Whitty and Van Tam are saying and take what the clown who stands between them with a pinch of salt.

 

[Jonm]

It’s standard work for doctors and nurses - just in difficult and demanding circumstances - what conflicts are you imagining.

How about, do I treat this elderly patient for COVID or the thirty year old, married with two children with cancer who will die if not treated. How long can I leave the thirty year old untreated before the cancer becomes terminal.

Seems difficult and conflicting to me.

 

[NormanB]

How about, do I treat this elderly patient for COVID or the thirty year old, married with two children with cancer who will die if not treated. How long can I leave the thirty year old untreated before the cancer becomes terminal.

Seems difficult and conflicting to me.

But standard medical decision matrix - however harsh and difficult.

 

[Rorschach]

How about, do I treat this elderly patient for COVID or the thirty year old, married with two children with cancer who will die if not treated. How long can I leave the thirty year old untreated before the cancer becomes terminal.

Seems difficult and conflicting to me.

Not difficult and any doctor will know how to deal with it. Make the elderly patient as comfortable as possible and when stable concentrate on the 30yr old. If you only have 1 bed and you are certain the 30yr old must be treated right now, they get the bed.

 

[Chris152]

Not difficult and any doctor will know how to deal with it. Make the elderly patient as comfortable as possible and when stable concentrate on the 30yr old. If you only have 1 bed and you are certain the 30yr old must be treated right now, they get the bed.

Truly astonished

 

[Rorschach]

Truly astonished

You would let the young person die then?

EDIT: This has drifted off topic again. In brighter news, an excellent Tuesday for a change, case numbers very low indeed.

 

[Chris152]

You would let the young person die then?

No, I'm just astonished at the ease with which you resolved a fundamental problem hospitals are facing at the mo. My mate's a consultant neurologist, had to undergo training to work with covid patients, leaving behind essential work he'd been doing and should still have been doing. That's both difficult and conflicting for him as he tries to sort his priorities. But I'll pass on your advice, he'll be delighted.

 

[Garno]

Hi,

I was one of those who thought the vaccine had been rushed through and might end up like another Thalidomide problem but it's now been tested on over 10 million here in the UK so I was happy to receive my Zeneca *** last Saturday night at 7:35. Driving conditions were appalling; flooded roads saw the Yeti sending up huge sprays as it hit the many deep puddles and it was absolutely bucketing down with rain whilst like driving in a black hole. I can't stand football so with my luck I attended John Smiths Stadium the first time in my life I've ever set foot inside such a stadium so here I am with football possibly saving my life so I'm grateful.

The car park was awash with heavy driven rain and I felt very sorry indeed for the car park attendants out is such atrocious conditions; I had a short "follow the yellow brick road" to enter the building and was greeted by a pleasant guy taking my details then allowed forward; just a couple in front of me both needing jabs; I added gel to my hands and rubbed it in also of course I was wearing a mask. A young lady then took me to the vaccination booth and I was greeted by three lovely ladies; my details were again checked as we shared a laugh it all being very pleasant indeed; I removed my dripping wet heavy Parka and rolled up my left sleeve before sitting down again; at this point I placed a box of Milk Tray chocolates on the table which delighted the ladies; the *** was virtually painless just a prick in the arm; I was then given a small card stating I'd had my first *** and I had already arranged my second *** for 25th April; *** sorted in very little time.

The exit was between the football pitch and stands; I was let out by another cheerful guy on door duty; outside I'd lost directions as to where the car was parked; it was still bucketing down with rain and incredibly dark; I had the parka hood over my head but my trousers and shoes were soaking wet also it was perishingly cold as I finally reached the car. I'm usually a good driver but backing the car out proved difficult due to mirrors and windows awash with rain but in no time at all it was snowing heavily; what a dreadful journey.

I'm mightily impressed by ALL THE FRONT LINE who are doing a remarkable job and I often dislike our government but full credit to our government too for rolling out the vaccine program and having millions receive their jabs in such a short period of time.

Like others have stated the only side effect was a very dull ache in my arm rather like the effect of gently bumping into something; no pain as such I could just feel it and no inconvenience at all.

I've rambled on because in spite of my initial reticence about the *** I'd recommend everyone to accept the *** as quickly as they can then perhaps we can get the country up and running again. There's absolutely nothing scary or to worry about in having the ***.

Kind regards, Colin.

Wonderful post Colin, Thank you.

 

[NormanB]

No, I'm just astonished at the ease with which you resolved a fundamental problem hospitals are facing at the mo. My mate's a consultant neurologist, had to undergo training to work with covid patients, leaving behind essential work he'd been doing and should still have been doing. That's both difficult and conflicting for him as he tries to sort his priorities. But I'll pass on your advice, he'll be delighted.

And he will tell you that is part of the terrain Doctors are trained in and features throughout their practice. No suggestion it is easy - it’s in the job description.

 

[Lons]

And he will tell you that is part of the terrain Doctors are trained in and features throughout their practice. No suggestion it is easy - it’s in the job description.

Sorry Norman but I'd disagree with you there and with the benefit of having a fair number of relatives in the NHS.
Staff have been drafted in from all departments and areas many of whom are not at all used to nursing critically ill and dying patients and the emotional toll is huge, for anyone to say it's "part of their job description" or as someone else said " not difficult" is demeaning IMHO.

There are many staff in the NHS who never need to confront death or seriously ill patients during their normal accountabilities, orthopaedics, ENT, Maternity, there's a huge list. There's a reason HDU and intensive care staff get special training.

 

[Jonm]

No, I'm just astonished at the ease with which you resolved a fundamental problem hospitals are facing at the mo. My mate's a consultant neurologist, had to undergo training to work with covid patients, leaving behind essential work he'd been doing and should still have been doing. That's both difficult and conflicting for him as he tries to sort his priorities. But I'll pass on your advice, he'll be delighted.

The start of this discussion was a comment that it was only the politicians who had to make the difficult decisions not the nhs, technicians, civil servants. Perhaps your neurologist friend will have an opinion on that.

 

[NormanB]

Sorry Norman but I'd disagree with you there and with the benefit of having a fair number of relatives in the NHS.
Staff have been drafted in from all departments and areas many of whom are not at all used to nursing critically ill and dying patients and the emotional toll is huge, for anyone to say it's "part of their job description" or as someone else said " not difficult" is demeaning IMHO.

There are many staff in the NHS who never need to confront death or seriously ill patients during their normal accountabilities, orthopaedics, ENT, Maternity, there's a huge list. There's a reason HDU and intensive care staff get special training.

I have only recently retired from the NHS and was not seeking to be demeaning (but you have your opinion - fine).
I said, which you choose to pass over, they are doing their job in demanding and difficult circumstances. Doctors make ‘life and death’ decisions often - it is not something of a surprise to them nor are they ‘conflicted’.

 

[Lons]

Of course they do Norman and as I said I have a number of close family in front line NHS roles so I see what they do and also know how it affects them personally. my daughter was a specialist critical care nurse on HDU for a number of years and had to leave even though she knew what it entailed, my wife's uncle was a very senior heart consultant who specialised with children many of who he got too late to save, he coped by never getting close until he knew they would survive, not something I could do.

I stand by what I said though, large numbers of NHS staff are facing dying, critically ill patients because they've been drafted in to Covid units and it's well out of their comfort zone, I'd suggest that it's extremely rare for a doctor specialising in orthopaedics, ENT or maternity as well as other departments need to make a life or death decision.

it wasn't you who said "not difficult" the guy who said that has just given you a thumbs up and most people on here know what his opinion counts for.
I respect your opinion but disagree, not going to argue so as far as I'm concerned I'll draw a line under it and leave others to make their own minds up.

 

[Rorschach]

Of course they do Norman and as I said I have a number of close family in front line NHS roles so I see what they do and also know how it affects them personally. my daughter was a specialist critical care nurse on HDU for a number of years and had to leave even though she knew what it entailed, my wife's uncle was a very senior heart consultant who specialised with children many of who he got too late to save, he coped by never getting close until he knew they would survive, not something I could do.

I stand by what I said though, large numbers of NHS staff are facing dying, critically ill patients because they've been drafted in to Covid units and it's well out of their comfort zone, I'd suggest that it's extremely rare for a doctor specialising in orthopaedics, ENT or maternity as well as other departments need to make a life or death decision.

it wasn't you who said "not difficult" the guy who said that has just given you a thumbs up and most people on here know what his opinion counts for.
I respect your opinion but disagree, not going to argue so as far as I'm concerned I'll draw a line under it and leave others to make their own minds up.

Oooh oooh oooh It's me! Do I get a prize?

I agree there probably are people who have been transferred who are finding it difficult and may well reconsider their career choice as a result. I do have some sympathy with them, but not as much as I have for those who entire lives have been ruined as a result of the governments actions though.
FWIW I wouldn't count maternity in there, those working in maternity both midwives and doctors are some tough cookies who do indeed have to make life and death decisions every day involving young mothers and babies, I would wager that is probably a lot more difficult than working on a covid ward, a maternity ward would be the last place I would want to work. Look see, I'm not dead inside.