Vaccination

[Rorschach]

Rorschach and Robin and one or two others, much as I, ah, enjoy your interactions please do not make this a replay of the last thread. Never the twain shall meet and that is obvious to you both and any dog you find in the street.
@Garno started the thread and it's been informative and perhaps even helpful for those getting/had/considering a *** or two so let's keep it that way.

I agree and I apologise for any trouble caused @Garno
@RobinBHM lets just agree to disagree on all things C19, I won't comment on your posts and you don't comment on mine and the world will be a happier place. Deal?

 

[Woody2Shoes]

To vaccinate or not - there is just 9 months evidence related to long term impacts of vaccination. There are no certainties - but:

• for those 60+ the risks of vaccination are almost certainly far exceeded by the risks of contracting covid.

......

You have that first point back to front surely - either that, or I insist you back up your assertion with some evidence (it's so potentially dangerous otherwise)?

The risk of death or life-threating illness to a 60+ year-old from a vaccination is vanishingly tiny, whereas the risk of death or life-threatening illness to someone in the same cohort from contracting Covid must be orders of magnitude greater - I really can't be bothered to dig up some numbers, but I will if I have to.
PS that's ignoring the other benefits of vaccination to the wider population: contributing to herd immunity and contributing to a reduction in the opprtunities for virus mutations to occur and propagate themselves.

 

[Rorschach]

You have that first point back to front surely - either that, or I insist you back up your assertion with some evidence (it's so potentially dangerous otherwise)?

The risk of death or life-threating illness to a 60+ year-old from a vaccination is vanishingly tiny, whereas the risk of death or life-threatening illness to someone in the same cohort from contracting Covid must be orders of magnitude greater - I really can't be bothered to dig up some numbers, but I will if I have to.
PS that's ignoring the other benefits of vaccination to the wider population: contributing to herd immunity and contributing to a reduction in the opprtunities for virus muations to occur and propagate themselves.

What you just said is how I read the point, C19 is more dangerous than vaccine for over 60's, (potentially) less dangerous for under 60.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

What you just said is how I read the point, C19 is more dangerous than vaccine for over 60's, (potentially) less dangerous for under 60.

I really don't agree about the under 60's bit either! Edit: the risk to anyone over 18 from a vaccination is vanishingly tiny (and smaller than the risk of non-trivial effects of contracting covid for most, if not all, of the 18-60 year-olds). I've re-(re-)read Terry's post and I see what you mean about wording of the first point!

 

[Rorschach]

I really don't agree about the under 60's bit either!

You agree you got a bit confused previously though?

I would probably agree on under 60's too, I would put that number at under 40's probably, at least for this first round of vaccination/herd immunity. In the future that might change.

 

[Woody2Shoes]

You agree you got a bit confused previously though?
....

The wording has a lack of clarity, I had to read it several times!

 

[Trainee neophyte]

Trolling, in other words.

I thought I was gently teasing, in a good natured ribbing sort of way. I apologise unreservedly if it was anything else. It certainly wasn't intended to be a bona fide trolling attempt. I'll let you know if I am ever clever enough to attempt one of those.

 

[Garno]

I agree and I apologise for any trouble caused @Garno
@RobinBHM lets just agree to disagree on all things C19, I won't comment on your posts and you don't comment on mine and the world will be a happier place. Deal?

@Rorschach Thank you, It caused no trouble but it was heading in that direction, as far as I am aware nobody had reported anything but I think I was not too far from doing so.
We have had a lot of good posts within this thread including some from both yourself and @RobinBHM and it would be a shame for it to be closed, I for one, have enjoyed when people let us know when they are having a ***, I also enjoy when people let us know they are not having one albeit I struggle to understand the reasoning. Thank you very much @Noel for stamping out a potential problem as fast as you did.

 

[selectortone]

Had my *** (OxAZ) at 11:00 this morning at my local doctors surgery. I was massively impressed with the organisation. The last time I was there, about a month ago, there was a huge queue in the car park for flu jabs and one harrassed woman at the reception desk completely overwhelmed, so I was expecting the worst. This time it was the exact opposite - volunteer marshalls guiding people smoothly through a one way system. I was in and out in five minutes. Advice was not to drive for 15 minutes, otherwise you're free to go. Amazing - made me even more proud of my NHS. The *** itself was entirely painless.

As to side-effects, none so far. Possibly a tiny bit of ache in my arm, but I get aches and pains worse than that mowing the lawn, vacuuming or doing too much turning.

Ten out of ten. Back of the net.

 

[RobinBHM]

.

I agree and I apologise for any trouble caused @Garno
@RobinBHM lets just agree to disagree on all things C19, I won't comment on your posts and you don't comment on mine and the world will be a happier place. Deal?

Yes indeed, Deal

 

[doctor Bob]

Just about 500k first jabs figures

 

[Inspector]

My wife was among the first here to get jabbed, a nurse, but I don't expect to get one until deep into the summer if at all this year. The entire country has given out just over one million doses and this province will have only given 50,000 people their two shots by the end of March. There's only a million of us in this one. Good news is the clinical trials of a locally developed vaccine got under way this past week and hopefully will be in production by the end of the year. There is no vaccine production in the country of any kind and we have to rely on importing them so having a home grown product will be welcomed. I wonder if it is grain based?

Pete

 

[Deadeye]

What you just said is how I read the point, C19 is more dangerous than vaccine for over 60's, (potentially) less dangerous for under 60.

The data simply don't support that regarding the under 60s. Having the vaccination is orders of magnitude less risky than catching covid, even if you are a 25 year old in perfect (otherwise) health. Where on earth are people getting the idea that either Covid is fine if you're under 60, or that the vaccine is risky, or both?

 

[selectortone]

....Where on earth are people getting the idea that either Covid is fine if you're under 60, or that the vaccine is risky, or both?

The answer to that is to be found in the "Another Joke" thread:

 

[Rorschach]

The data simply don't support that regarding the under 60s. Having the vaccination is orders of magnitude less risky than catching covid, even if you are a 25 year old in perfect (otherwise) health. Where on earth are people getting the idea that either Covid is fine if you're under 60, or that the vaccine is risky, or both?

Go back a few more posts and my post will make more sense.

 

[Nick.]

Just as an update as I said I would, my daughter hasn't been feeling 100% since the AZ *** yesterday and spent a lot of time today back in bed with a headache and some chills which a hot afternoon bath with her music blaring out sorted, but these are really just minor side effects we guess and not concerning to us - we know when she's really ill and this was not really ill.. She's a lot back to normal tonight which is good news & we are still v glad she has had it.
Guy down the CO-OP earlier in his 70's also said he hasn't been too well either with a few chills etc after having it yesterday too. I said same as my daughter - he was well enough to be out shopping so not that bad as he agreed, think he just wanted some re-assurance that maybe there are some initial effects that people get.

 

[RobinBHM]

Just as an update as I said I would, my daughter hasn't been feeling 100% since the AZ *** yesterday and spent a lot of time today back in bed with a headache and some chills which a hot afternoon bath with her music blaring out sorted, but these are really just minor side effects we guess and not concerning to us - we know when she's really ill and this was not really ill.. She's a lot back to normal tonight which is good news & we are still v glad she has had it.
Guy down the CO-OP earlier in his 70's also said he hasn't been too well either with a few chills etc after having it yesterday too. I said same as my daughter - he was well enough to be out shopping so not that bad as he agreed, think he just wanted some re-assurance that maybe there are some initial effects that people get.

I'm glad to hear your daughter is feeling better this evening. My MIL had the *** nearly 3 weeks back, it's reassuring to know immunity is building each day.

 

[Jonm]

Jon

I expect you mean well - but please don't suggest that the tragedy of thalidomide is comparable in any way.

Small molecule therapeutics (like thalidomide and most "medicines") are designed to alter the balance of chemical pathways. Because of the complexity and interconnectedness of mammalian biochemistry, it's extremely rare to find a chemical agent with a single effect on a single target receptor that modulates a single pathway and outcome.

Vaccines on the other hand are, or produce by direct translation, an antigenic protein fragment. The fragment itself is not medicinally active; it is just recognised as "foreign". The proces sby which it is recognised as foreign, and a response is raised against it is exactly the same as if you graze your knee and get dirt, viruses, mouold, bacteria or anything else in it. That process is not modified in any way by the vaccination process. The main difference to you grazing your knee, is that a larger quantity of one particular foreign material is being seen, but the mechanism underlying is the same.

Vaccination is probably the safest, most cost-effective and beneficial intervention that medicine can provide. It's up there with clean water, good diet, sufficient sunlight, and exercise. Small molecule therapeutics of course also have their place, but are a different league of risk benefit.

Anyway, glad you are vaccinated; just wanted to correct the false comparison.

Hi
I did not actually compare the COVID vaccine to thalidomide, they are obviously completely different things. I was making the point that medicines have been approved in the past and found to have adverse unexpected effects and used thalidomide as an example of this because it is so well known.

A few people have expressed their concerns to me that the short timescale is insufficient for any long term adverse effects to develop. I was actually responding to a post which expressed that concern.

As someone with those concerns I set out my logic for taking the vaccine. Every other vaccine I have taken (and there have been many) has had a long track record of previous use.

 

[Mark Hancock]

Hi
I did not actually compare the COVID vaccine to thalidomide, they are obviously completely different things. I was making the point that medicines have been approved in the past and found to have adverse unexpected effects and used thalidomide as an example of this because it is so well known.

A few people have expressed their concerns to me that the short timescale is insufficient for any long term adverse effects to develop. I was actually responding to a post which expressed that concern.

As someone with those concerns I set out my logic for taking the vaccine. Every other vaccine I have taken (and there have been many) has had a long track record of previous use.

Maybe this will reassure you Claim: Vaccines were rushed, and might be unsafe

 

[Chris152]

I think it's now clear we need to do more to stop the variant found in S Africa, and any others. (FT report on O/AZ vaccine, last night.) We need a full lock down of all but essential services for 3 weeks while we properly find and try to stop the variant, and ongoing full control of borders/ quarantine til we know more. Obviously it won't happen, but that's what I reckon we need.